Ticking/Rattle on acceleration

Disclaimer: Links on this page pointing to Amazon, eBay and other sites may include affiliate code. If you click them and make a purchase, we may earn a small commission.

MikeB

Full Access Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2014
Posts
1,749
Reaction score
938
Location
North Texas
First Name
Mike
Truck Year
1969
Truck Model
C10
Engine Size
355
Ported vacuum pulls from idle on up along with the mechanical advance, so depending on the total you could have up to 50* on acceleration and that will rattle the **** out of it if not melt stuff, on the other hand with manifold vacuum you have vacuum at idle(which gives a smoother idle) and it drops as you accelerate and you're only on the mechanical which should be about 36*-38* depending what the engine can handle, then when you back off to cruise mode vacuum comes up and gives you more advance which gives you better mileage and less heat, ported vacuum is a smog thing and works in conjunction with the rest of the junk, so if you don't have all the smog stuff and you want it to run right, you hook it up to manifold vacuum.

I believe the only difference between ported and manifold vacuum advance is one of them advances the timing at idle, the other does it only when the throttle blades start to open. But both go away under low vacuum -- during acceleration. Ported vacuum drops just like manifold vacuum because it IS manifold vacuum when the throttle is open. Edit: Are you saying the vacuum is created by air flow past the port? Like the vacuum port that controls Holley secondaries? If so, I would be wrong. Now I gotta go test it!


For anyone interested, I just cut this from an article written by a retired GM engineer who was involved with advance mechanisms:

Now, to the widely-misunderstood manifold-vs.-ported vacuum aberration. After 30-40 years of controlling vacuum advance with full manifold vacuum, along came emissions requirements, years before catalytic converter technology had been developed, and all manner of crude band-aid systems were developed to try and reduce hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen in the exhaust stream. One of these band-aids was "ported spark", which moved the vacuum pickup orifice in the carburetor venturi from below the throttle plate (where it was exposed to full manifold vacuum at idle) to above the throttle plate, where it saw no manifold vacuum at all at idle. This meant the vacuum advance was inoperative at idle (retarding spark timing from its optimum value), and these applications also had VERY low initial static timing (usually 4 degrees or less, and some actually were set at 2 degrees AFTER TDC). This was done in order to increase exhaust gas temperature (due to "lighting the fire late") to improve the effectiveness of the "afterburning" of hydrocarbons by the air injected into the exhaust manifolds by the A.I.R. system; as a result, these engines ran like crap, and an enormous amount of wasted heat energy was transferred through the exhaust port walls into the coolant, causing them to run hot at idle - cylinder pressure fell off, engine temperatures went up, combustion efficiency went down the drain, and fuel economy went down with it.

If you look at the centrifugal advance calibrations for these "ported spark, late-timed" engines, you'll see that instead of having 20 degrees of advance, they had up to 34 degrees of advance in the distributor, in order to get back to the 34-36 degrees "total timing" at high rpm wide-open throttle to get some of the performance back. The vacuum advance still worked at steady-state highway cruise (lean mixture = low emissions), but it was inoperative at idle, which caused all manner of problems - "ported vacuum" was strictly an early, pre-converter crude emissions strategy, and nothing more.
 
Last edited:

74 Shortbed

Full Access Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2013
Posts
6,306
Reaction score
1,412
Location
*
First Name
*
Truck Year
*
Truck Model
*
Engine Size
*
That is a good article it's all over the net, actually the whole article is a good read.

TIMING AND VACUUM ADVANCE 101

The most important concept to understand is that lean mixtures, such as at idle and steady highway cruise, take longer to burn than rich mixtures; idle in particular, as idle mixture is affected by exhaust gas dilution. This requires that lean mixtures have "the fire lit" earlier in the compression cycle (spark timing advanced), allowing more burn time so that peak cylinder pressure is reached just after TDC for peak efficiency and reduced exhaust gas temperature (wasted combustion energy). Rich mixtures, on the other hand, burn faster than lean mixtures, so they need to have "the fire lit" later in the compression cycle (spark timing retarded slightly) so maximum cylinder pressure is still achieved at the same point after TDC as with the lean mixture, for maximum efficiency.

The centrifugal advance system in a distributor advances spark timing purely as a function of engine rpm (irrespective of engine load or operating conditions), with the amount of advance and the rate at which it comes in determined by the weights and springs on top of the autocam mechanism. The amount of advance added by the distributor, combined with initial static timing, is "total timing" (i.e., the 34-36 degrees at high rpm that most SBC's like). Vacuum advance has absolutely nothing to do with total timing or performance, as when the throttle is opened, manifold vacuum drops essentially to zero, and the vacuum advance drops out entirely; it has no part in the "total timing" equation.

At idle, the engine needs additional spark advance in order to fire that lean, diluted mixture earlier in order to develop maximum cylinder pressure at the proper point, so the vacuum advance can (connected to manifold vacuum, not "ported" vacuum - more on that aberration later) is activated by the high manifold vacuum, and adds about 15 degrees of spark advance, on top of the initial static timing setting (i.e., if your static timing is at 10 degrees, at idle it's actually around 25 degrees with the vacuum advance connected). The same thing occurs at steady-state highway cruise; the mixture is lean, takes longer to burn, the load on the engine is low, the manifold vacuum is high, so the vacuum advance is again deployed, and if you had a timing light set up so you could see the balancer as you were going down the highway, you'd see about 50 degrees advance (10 degrees initial, 20-25 degrees from the centrifugal advance, and 15 degrees from the vacuum advance) at steady-state cruise (it only takes about 40 horsepower to cruise at 50mph).

When you accelerate, the mixture is instantly enriched (by the accelerator pump, power valve, etc.), burns faster, doesn't need the additional spark advance, and when the throttle plates open, manifold vacuum drops, and the vacuum advance can returns to zero, retarding the spark timing back to what is provided by the initial static timing plus the centrifugal advance provided by the distributor at that engine rpm; the vacuum advance doesn't come back into play until you back off the gas and manifold vacuum increases again as you return to steady-state cruise, when the mixture again becomes lean.

The key difference is that centrifugal advance (in the distributor autocam via weights and springs) is purely rpm-sensitive; nothing changes it except changes in rpm. Vacuum advance, on the other hand, responds to engine load and rapidly-changing operating conditions, providing the correct degree of spark advance at any point in time based on engine load, to deal with both lean and rich mixture conditions. By today's terms, this was a relatively crude mechanical system, but it did a good job of optimizing engine efficiency, throttle response, fuel economy, and idle cooling, with absolutely ZERO effect on wide-open throttle performance, as vacuum advance is inoperative under wide-open throttle conditions. In modern cars with computerized engine controllers, all those sensors and the controller change both mixture and spark timing 50 to 100 times per second, and we don't even HAVE a distributor any more - it's all electronic.

Now, to the widely-misunderstood manifold-vs.-ported vacuum aberration. After 30-40 years of controlling vacuum advance with full manifold vacuum, along came emissions requirements, years before catalytic converter technology had been developed, and all manner of crude band-aid systems were developed to try and reduce hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen in the exhaust stream. One of these band-aids was "ported spark", which moved the vacuum pickup orifice in the carburetor venturi from below the throttle plate (where it was exposed to full manifold vacuum at idle) to above the throttle plate, where it saw no manifold vacuum at all at idle. This meant the vacuum advance was inoperative at idle (retarding spark timing from its optimum value), and these applications also had VERY low initial static timing (usually 4 degrees or less, and some actually were set at 2 degrees AFTER TDC). This was done in order to increase exhaust gas temperature (due to "lighting the fire late") to improve the effectiveness of the "afterburning" of hydrocarbons by the air injected into the exhaust manifolds by the A.I.R. system; as a result, these engines ran like crap, and an enormous amount of wasted heat energy was transferred through the exhaust port walls into the coolant, causing them to run hot at idle - cylinder pressure fell off, engine temperatures went up, combustion efficiency went down the drain, and fuel economy went down with it.

If you look at the centrifugal advance calibrations for these "ported spark, late-timed" engines, you'll see that instead of having 20 degrees of advance, they had up to 34 degrees of advance in the distributor, in order to get back to the 34-36 degrees "total timing" at high rpm wide-open throttle to get some of the performance back. The vacuum advance still worked at steady-state highway cruise (lean mixture = low emissions), but it was inoperative at idle, which caused all manner of problems - "ported vacuum" was strictly an early, pre-converter crude emissions strategy, and nothing more.

What about the Harry high-school non-vacuum advance polished billet "whizbang" distributors you see in the Summit and Jeg's catalogs? They're JUNK on a street-driven car, but some people keep buying them because they're "race car" parts, so they must be "good for my car" - they're NOT. "Race cars" run at wide-open throttle, rich mixture, full load, and high rpm all the time, so they don't need a system (vacuum advance) to deal with the full range of driving conditions encountered in street operation. Anyone driving a street-driven car without manifold-connected vacuum advance is sacrificing idle cooling, throttle response, engine efficiency, and fuel economy, probably because they don't understand what vacuum advance is, how it works, and what it's for - there are lots of long-time experienced "mechanics" who don't understand the principles and operation of vacuum advance either, so they're not alone.

Vacuum advance calibrations are different between stock engines and modified engines, especially if you have a lot of cam and have relatively low manifold vacuum at idle. Most stock vacuum advance cans aren’t fully-deployed until they see about 15” Hg. Manifold vacuum, so those cans don’t work very well on a modified engine; with less than 15” Hg. at a rough idle, the stock can will “dither” in and out in response to the rapidly-changing manifold vacuum, constantly varying the amount of vacuum advance, which creates an unstable idle. Modified engines with more cam that generate less than 15” Hg. of vacuum at idle need a vacuum advance can that’s fully-deployed at least 1”, preferably 2” of vacuum less than idle vacuum level so idle advance is solid and stable; the Echlin #VC-1810 advance can (about $10 at NAPA) provides the same amount of advance as the stock can (15 degrees), but is fully-deployed at only 8” of vacuum, so there is no variation in idle timing even with a stout cam.

For peak engine performance, driveability, idle cooling and efficiency in a street-driven car, you need vacuum advance, connected to full manifold vacuum. Absolutely. Positively. Don't ask Summit or Jeg's about it – they don’t understand it, they're on commission, and they want to sell "race car" parts.
 

1987 GMC Jimmy

Automobile Hoarder
Joined
Jan 23, 2016
Posts
5,848
Reaction score
2,387
Location
Mississippi
First Name
Jesse
Truck Year
1987
Truck Model
V1500 Jimmy
Engine Size
350
This sounds kinda violent. You've gone through your exhaust from back to front? Damn. Have you checked the flexplate for cracks? They can get noisy when they're going bad. When you replace the oil pressure sender, did you get a reasonable reading? I hate to say what I think this sound sounds like, but I only say this because it's happened to me. It's an extremely loud, projected sound that sounds a lot like a failing rod bearing. When I bought my Jimmy, the oil pressure gauge wasn't working and it turns out the oil pump had also failed. I got the sound about halfway home, and it died about 2/3 home. That's what it was.
 
Last edited:

Gator

Junior Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Posts
20
Reaction score
0
Location
Iowa
First Name
Gator
Truck Year
1983
Truck Model
K20
Engine Size
400
This sounds kinda violent. You've gone through your exhaust from back to front? Damn. Have you checked the flexplate for cracks? They can get noisy when they're going bad. When you replace the oil pressure sender, did you get a reasonable reading? I hate to say what I think this sound sounds like, but I only say this because it's happened to me. It's an extremely loud, projected sound that sounds a lot like a failing rod bearing. When I bought my Jimmy, the oil pressure gauge wasn't working and it turns out the oil pump had also failed. I got the sound about halfway home, and it died about 2/3 home. That's what it was.

I looked at the flexplate a bit since I've had one crack before. I didn't see anything noticeable. It's fresh off the rebuild too so I assume the shop would have seen any cracks. The oil pressure gauge never worked either so you're probably right. I'm assuming this is only repairable by rebuild or motor swap?

They run better with oil in them, I heard.
Gots a FRAM filter on it?

No, it has a NAPA ProSelect. I've never replaced the filter, nor done a proper oil change on it since I'm owned it because it's only run for maybe ~month worth of time.
 

1987 GMC Jimmy

Automobile Hoarder
Joined
Jan 23, 2016
Posts
5,848
Reaction score
2,387
Location
Mississippi
First Name
Jesse
Truck Year
1987
Truck Model
V1500 Jimmy
Engine Size
350
Yeah, the rod bearings are in the bottom end so the motor would have to be taken apart. If that's what it is, I hope it can be rebuilt because 400's are awesome. I don't want to scare you or make you upset because I know I was devastated when it happened to me. I hope others will chime in and give their $0.02 because I don't want to suggest the worst possible outcome and there are still other options to explore. Does it do it whenever you give it gas in park? You could always do the ole pull one spark plug off at a time test to see if you can isolate it to one cylinder. I'd maybe get a mechanical oil gauge and see what's going on. We've ruled out exhaust, flexplate, top end (for the most part)... How are your u joints? Does the driveshaft have any play?
 
Last edited:

Gator

Junior Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Posts
20
Reaction score
0
Location
Iowa
First Name
Gator
Truck Year
1983
Truck Model
K20
Engine Size
400
Yeah, the rod bearings are in the bottom end so the motor would have to be taken apart. If that's what it is, I hope it can be rebuilt because 400's are awesome. I don't want to scare you or make you upset because I know I was devastated when it happened to me. I hope others will chime in and give their $0.02 because I don't want to suggest the worst possible outcome and there are still other options to explore. Does it do it whenever you give it gas in park? You could always do the ole pull one spark plug off at a time test to see if you can isolate it to one cylinder. I'd maybe get a mechanical oil gauge and see what's going on. We've ruled out exhaust, flexplate, top end (for the most part)... How are your u joints? Does the driveshaft have any play?

While it is disappointing, I'm not surprised. I've did a lot of research before I saw your post and was thinking the same thing. I don't know how the u-joints are but the sound comes from the firewall region so I don't think it would be them. I still have a scheduled visit to the shop that did the rebuild, since I brought it to them because I suspected the flexplate/torque converter. Would it still be worth bringing it in for the check? Otherwise, I've been looking around Craigslist, etc for a new motor.
 

350runner

Full Access Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2013
Posts
2,858
Reaction score
224
Location
tx
First Name
Ceasar
Truck Year
82
Truck Model
c10
Engine Size
350
Id really start by checking and adjusting your valve lash sounds a bit out of adjustment. Have you limited the vac advance to 8- 10 degrees? If not I'd suggest doing so. Totally sounds like to much vac advance combined with valve lash issues.

Sent from my LGLS991 using Tapatalk
 

1987 GMC Jimmy

Automobile Hoarder
Joined
Jan 23, 2016
Posts
5,848
Reaction score
2,387
Location
Mississippi
First Name
Jesse
Truck Year
1987
Truck Model
V1500 Jimmy
Engine Size
350
While it is disappointing, I'm not surprised. I've did a lot of research before I saw your post and was thinking the same thing. I don't know how the u-joints are but the sound comes from the firewall region so I don't think it would be them. I still have a scheduled visit to the shop that did the rebuild, since I brought it to them because I suspected the flexplate/torque converter. Would it still be worth bringing it in for the check? Otherwise, I've been looking around Craigslist, etc for a new motor.

You mean the transmission rebuild? This motor's not rebuilt is it? I remember you saying that you were told it was fresh and it turned out not to be I mean, if you want a professional opinion, I would, but it may be best to find a 400 short block and do it all yourself. It seems like you already have some piston ring problems, and then there's whatever this is. I don't want to say for sure because I'm not completely sure, but it doesn't sound very good. You could always pull this one, get a rebuild kit, and dig in. There are all kinds of manuals and videos on the web. That would be cheapest.
 

Gator

Junior Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Posts
20
Reaction score
0
Location
Iowa
First Name
Gator
Truck Year
1983
Truck Model
K20
Engine Size
400
Id really start by checking and adjusting your valve lash sounds a bit out of adjustment. Have you limited the vac advance to 8- 10 degrees? If not I'd suggest doing so. Totally sounds like to much vac advance combined with valve lash issues.

Sent from my LGLS991 using Tapatalk

I will look into the valve lash. It's something I haven't tried yet so it won't hurt. I haven't touched the vac. advance yet. That would be done by moving the vac. cylinder(?) on the distributor right? What is confusing me is that it began as a rattle when the truck was giving a lot of load (3/4 throttle +) and then developed to the knocking after I had to run it full throttle. It doesn't seem like any timing issue would be related to that.

You mean the transmission rebuild? This motor's not rebuilt is it? I remember you saying that you were told it was fresh and it turned out not to be I mean, if you want a professional opinion, I would, but it may be best to find a 400 short block and do it all yourself. It seems like you already have some piston ring problems, and then there's whatever this is. I don't want to say for sure because I'm not completely sure, but it doesn't sound very good. You could always pull this one, get a rebuild kit, and dig in. There are all kinds of manuals and videos on the web. That would be cheapest.

The transmission is what is rebuilt. I'm kind of rushing the situation since it's my winter vehicle, which is why I'm looking at the new motor. I would rebuild the 400 if I did a swap.
 

350runner

Full Access Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2013
Posts
2,858
Reaction score
224
Location
tx
First Name
Ceasar
Truck Year
82
Truck Model
c10
Engine Size
350
Try disconnecting and plugging the the port the vac is connected to for time being. When did this issue start and what was done before?

Sent from my LGLS991 using Tapatalk
 

Gator

Junior Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Posts
20
Reaction score
0
Location
Iowa
First Name
Gator
Truck Year
1983
Truck Model
K20
Engine Size
400
Try disconnecting and plugging the the port the vac is connected to for time being. When did this issue start and what was done before?

Sent from my LGLS991 using Tapatalk

The knocking I'm experiencing has been happening for a few weeks. It was a rattle (like I had a piece of chain link hanging loose) and when I tried merging onto the highway, it had a fast pace knocking like in the video from inside the cab. It remained at the knock even as I let down into cruising speed and has remained like that since. I will try disconnecting and plugging. I don't believe much has been changed with the vacuum besides changing the port it was connected to.
 

Rusty Nail

Full Access Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2015
Posts
9,805
Reaction score
9,722
Location
the other side of the internet
First Name
Rusty
Truck Year
1977
Truck Model
C20
Engine Size
350sbc
Added. That engine is about to die.
It'll be much cheaper to fix if you do it now.
You really should stop driving that deal before you figure it out. That noise is DEFINITELY NOT "spark knock".

I'd start by pulling the plugs and valve covers + unplugging the distributor.

Find a helper of any ability to turn the key.

Have helper operate starter while you watch it crank.

Report findings.


*edit*
Wait. It's a 400?
Lemme read again. But double quit driving it.

*edit x2*

Lol @these dudes and their vacuum advance...it's pretty fun to watch. Messing with it yields no result because that's not the problem.

Dood. I think you may very well have some mix -matched 350+400 parts?

What do you know of the accessories and pulleys on the front? Where did the current installed harmonic balancer come from? What about the flywheel? These are VITALLY IMPORTANT questions that MUST be answered.

Did I mention the part about stop driving it? -UT's out if balance. How does it shift? Leaking transmission fluid?
 
Last edited:

Forum statistics

Threads
42,297
Posts
913,230
Members
33,795
Latest member
black_85c10
Top