Strange wiring issue, killing ignition module

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kaidenshi

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Hi folks. So I've been having this weird issue for several months now on a 1982 C10 with a rebuilt 350 from a 1972 (original engine was a 305). I kept the HEI distributor (aftermarket but factory was also HEI) and it has an Edelbrock 1602 carb.

A few months back I let my friend borrow the truck, and it shut off on him and wouldn't crank back up. When I looked at it, I noticed that the fuel line from the pump to the carb had sprung a leak and there was gasoline all over the front of the engine. I replaced the fuel line but the truck still wouldn't start, so I had it towed. I did some troubleshooting and found the ignition module had blown, so I got a replacement from Advance Auto (4 pin version, distributor is a cheap Accel). It started right up and ran, but when I would hit about 2800 RPM or so it would bog down and misfire. After a few more times starting it, suddenly it wouldn't start again (I believe it blew the ignition module again but I haven't pulled it yet).

My suspicion is a short somewhere, and I did find a one-wire sensor cable coming off the block on the driver's side (coolant temp?) that had melted to the manifold. I pulled that wire free and re-taped it and it still won't crank so I think the ignition module does need replacing again. I'm wondering if that sensor wire could have caused a short that killed the ignition module, or if it's possible I've got something more serious going on?

Any feedback is much appreciated, thanks!!

Morgan
 

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Sounds like it could have been a defective ICM.

Just to be sure, so you're positive this is a standard HEI dizzy? It's not wired for ESC? No 4 prong plug hanging out of it? Not the plug that goes to the dizzy cap and coil.
 

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Verify first, that there is NO spark.
Verify second that it is squirting fuel, when the accelerator is plunged.
Check that there is voltage at the red wire at the distributor.
 

kaidenshi

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Sounds like it could have been a defective ICM.

Just to be sure, so you're positive this is a standard HEI dizzy? It's not wired for ESC? No 4 prong plug hanging out of it? Not the plug that goes to the dizzy cap and coil.

This is the distributor I have:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/acc-59107c/overview/

No four prong plug from the distributor, but there is a 4 prong plug from the firewall that's not plugged into anything. The guy who built my engine said it was for a different kind of distributor than the one I have now and wasn't necessary for my current setup, and for the first few years I've had the engine it's never been hooked up and the truck has ran fine.
 

kaidenshi

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Verify first, that there is NO spark.
Verify second that it is squirting fuel, when the accelerator is plunged.
Check that there is voltage at the red wire at the distributor.

No spark, and there is fuel. Like I said, when I replace the ignition module it runs but it's rough, until it pops after several starts. I'm really just curious if a one wire sensor shorting to the manifold could cause the ignition to pop, or if I'm going to have to dig deeper into the whole ignition system.

I'm tempted to just remove all the ignition wiring from the firewall forward, and start over with it. It's a pretty simple system (the guy who built the engine wired it as if it were the 1972 truck he pulled the 350 from, except he kept my HEI distributor for the better economy and power).
 

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No spark, and there is fuel. Like I said, when I replace the ignition module it runs but it's rough, until it pops after several starts. I'm really just curious if a one wire sensor shorting to the manifold could cause the ignition to pop, or if I'm going to have to dig deeper into the whole ignition system.

I'm tempted to just remove all the ignition wiring from the firewall forward, and start over with it. It's a pretty simple system (the guy who built the engine wired it as if it were the 1972 truck he pulled the 350 from, except he kept my HEI distributor for the better economy and power).

Check the pickup coil.
 

chengny

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I noticed that the fuel line from the pump to the carb had sprung a leak and there was gasoline all over the front of the engine.

I'm not being sarcastic when I say "That's something you don't see everyday". It is extremely rare to see that piece of shaped steel tubing fail - ever. I have torn through literally 100's of old square bodies in the junkyards and never run across that. I think the steel used in that section of tubing was made to be highly corrosion resistant. Even if you take one that looks crappy, it can generally be brought back to like-new condition with a few strokes of a Scotch - Brite pad. And due to it's proximity to hot engine parts, the wall thickness was heavy duty.

Even in my wildest imagination I can't make a connection. I mean, between the carb feed line suddenly developing a leak - one that was big enough to stop the truck no less - and the primary ignition system failing both at the same time.

But my gut says there is one - a connection.

Gasoline is non-conductive, so it can't cause a short. Even if it were conductive, it evaporates so quickly the short would have cleared by the time the tow truck got there.

What is though, is highly flammable. Is it possible that, when the gas was spraying out over the front of the engine, a small fire was generated somewhere in the wiring harness? One that quickly flamed out when the engine quit - but still had time to damage the insulation on a lead. A lead that is part of the primary ignition system.

Just a thought.

I'm wondering if that sensor wire could have caused a short that killed the ignition module, or if it's possible I've got something more serious going on?

The green lead to the coolant sensor gets melted all the time and the engine will keep on running. The gauge wiring is entirely separate from the primary ignition wiring. So no, that wire being melted wouldn't cause your current problem.

Except for one lead ( the pink wire that comes straight from the ignition switched bank of the fuse block) your primary ignition wiring is all internal to the distributor. Unless you have a tach then there is an external white wire. If you do have a tach, pull that white and see what happens. Never mind, don't even bother with the tach wire - if it exists - if that lead is grounded it will only kill the engine, not damage the module. Forget that.

If not, check for a consistent power supply of at least 10 VDC on the pink. This really should be checked under real time conditions (i.e with the motor running and hot). If you test while the engine is off the results will not be valid. You will have to find a way to get your meter probe into the pink power lead and still have it connected to the BATT terminal on the distributor.

If the pink shows 12 VDC when the engine is running, and continues to show that when it dies - the problem is in the distributor. And I can almost guarantee you that you don't just have bad luck when buying modules, the modules are failing because the coil is damaged and over heating everything under it.
 
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This is the distributor I have:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/acc-59107c/overview/

No four prong plug from the distributor, but there is a 4 prong plug from the firewall that's not plugged into anything. The guy who built my engine said it was for a different kind of distributor than the one I have now and wasn't necessary for my current setup, and for the first few years I've had the engine it's never been hooked up and the truck has ran fine.

Yes, that 4 prong plug that goes to the ESC dizzy ECM. You can take that ECM and that 4 prong plug out now. It's behind the glove box. Also the wire to the knock sensor in the passenger side of the block. Or you can leave it there like it is and simply ignore it.
 

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I'm not being sarcastic when I say "That's something you don't see everyday". It is extremely rare to see that piece of shaped steel tubing fail - ever. I have torn through literally 100's of old square bodies in the junkyards and never run across that. I think the steel used in that section of tubing was made to be highly corrosion resistant. Even if you take one that looks crappy, it can generally be brought back to like-new condition with a few strokes of a Scotch - Brite pad. And due to it's proximity to hot engine parts, the wall thickness was heavy duty.

Yeah, that would be because the original metal fuel line had been replaced with a rubber line at some point before I bought the truck. I had been meaning to replace that rubber line with a braided or solid metal line for a while, but never got around to it. My laziness manifested in a crack that formed along the bottom of the rubber line, which led to this whole situation. I've since replaced that rubber hose with a braided one, but my electrical issue persists.

When I have time over the next few weeks I'm going to replace both battery cables, all my ground straps, and swap in a new distributor. Even before this issue popped up, I had planned on replacing the battery and ground cables as they are in bad shape anyway. I'm starting to think the distributor is bad, since it's killed three tachometers in the past few years even after swapping coils. Now it's killing the ignition module too, perhaps? And I do think it's just coincidence that the fuel line issue happened at the same time the ignition module popped, though I am going to go over every wire and connector in the ignition system just to be sure there's no burned or damaged wires, as you suggested.

Thanks so much for your detailed analysis and thoughts, you've been very helpful!
 

chengny

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If it were me - I am wicked cheap - I would not install a new distributor first. I am almost positive that (as long as there is at least 10 VDC on the pink at all times) the coil is shot. The insulation on the windings has most likely been effected by overheating (whether it was the fire or not remains to be seen). Now it runs hot and that heat is radiated to the module which has been failing as well. But don't ruin a new one if there is any possibility that the coils/modules are being destroyed by some outside factor.

Go to the junkyard and grab a complete OEM distributor. You can probably pick one up for $25. Even if it's not what you want for a final set-up use it as a diagnostic tool. Stab it in and crank. If the engine fires right up...it was definitely an internal issue with the aftermarket Accel unit. But you will not have determined whether it was caused by something external. Drive the truck daily and time will tell you if something external to the Accel was causing it's internals to fail. If you get a good stock distributor (confirmed because the engine runs well from the get go), leave it in there while you do all the other jobs on your hit list. When everything is done - and if the stock distributor is still firing the engine as designed weeks later - pull it and stab your new aftermarket unit.

My point is this, if you feel something external to the Accel was causing it to degenerate and start eating modules and coils, don't replace it with another big money show distributor until you see a cheap OEM unit function for an extended time.

There are essentially only 4 external factors (that I know of) that will cause an operating HEI distributor to fail - or not generate a spark;

1. The power supplied to the primary side of the coil on the pink wire is less than 10 volts. That scenario will cause a weak spark and if the voltage is low enough kill the engine. But in this case, no harm - no foul, no damage is done to the any of the internals. All that is needed is the resumption of the power supply to normal voltage. This is usually due to a short to ground in the pink wire but also happens sometimes if an HEI system is used in an older truck and the resistor type wire for the coil feed is not removed and replaced with a normal lead.

2. Another (very rare) cause of no spark that is the result of something external - and which can also cause permanent damage - is improper grounding of the primary circuit. A poor path to ground for the coil and the module can weaken the spark and cause early failure. The ground path for the coil/module starts at one of the module hold down screws. From there it is into the casing, along the shaft's outer sleeve and down to the clamping plate. Through the plate, into the locking bolt and finally from the bolt threads into the engine block (which is assumed to be bonded to the battery negative).

3. Excessively high voltage in the primary power supply. This is really rare because it needs to spike over 18 VDC - don't even consider that.

4. Really bad plug wires that can cross feed the sparks between them. There is more on this below. Personally, I think it's an urban legend - I have seen HEI systems keep running (poorly) with cross-firing. When the wires are replaced - it's back to normal.

Everything else is internal to the distributor.


Here is some other info on mismatched coils/modules:

Coil Power
While a good performance module will make a big difference in a stock HEI, matching it with a performance coil allows the system to work as efficiently as possible. In fact, all the aftermarket ignition companies sell matched coil and module sets to ensure optimal ignition operation. Coil design is very much a dark art and would require a textbook-sized story to detail all the different variations on the theme. Suffice it to say, by decreasing internal coil resistance, it is possible to decrease the amount of time necessary to charge the coil so it can fire the next spark plug with maximum energy.

This is an important factor since all the ignition companies we spoke to stressed the idea of properly matching the coil and module. The best way to do this is to use the coil specified by the manufacturer for its specific module. For example, ACCEL offers a stock replacement and two different performance modules for the typical four-pin HEI. Each requires its own coil to create optimal ignition power. What this means is that you should not mix and match coils and modules. In one particular situation, we combined a stock replacement module with a Petronix coil and the engine just seemed to run flat—as if the ignition timing were retarded, even though it wasn’t. As soon as we replaced the stock module with the matched Petronix module, the engine instantly responded and was again crisp and fun to drive.

Later, we tried to duplicate this coil and module mismatch in a different vehicle, but we did not see the same results. We also tried several mismatches of coils and modules with no apparent differences in , idle emissions, or throttle response. However, it’s clear that the best plan for optimal ignition performance would be to use the factory-matched module and coil.


And their discussion of module failure:

The single most cause of HEI module failure is coil related. Number 1 is the in-cap coil "layer shorting" When this issue arises, the epoxy coil has overheated (common for those coils due to the epoxy being almost the worst heat transfer material known to man), and has the primary windings insulation compromised and/or just plain burned away from some or more of the windings. This allows the windings to come together, short circuiting the length they have to be to operate correctly. Resistance is changed for the adverse, and the coil just plain overworks the module to failure.

It isn't enough any more to simply resistance test an in-cap, or any other coil. Real world, powered up tests are the new way to get it done correctly. Stores such as Auto-Zone have special testers that run the coil and test it off the vehicle, and give accurate feedback as to the coil's real condition/health. Do not just rely on "ohm'ing" a coil, get it run/load tested.

Next, two different scenarios, both as deadly as the other.

A) The carbon brush is compromised, and/or installed incorrectly. The correct sequence is: cap, carbon brush with spring positioned upwards, then silicone heat transfer grease on both sides of the insulator, installed onto the spring, then, coil. If this method isn't done correctly, the distance from the end of the carbon brush to the rotor connector bar becomes excessive, resistance on the secondary side and primary side of the coil rises, heat becomes too high, and the module fails.

B) The ground strap that grounds the coil from one of the coil hold down screws to the center terminal in the cap either is dirty and/or corroded. This makes for added resistance, and that is...module heat. Failure will occur. Contrary to what some will say, if this bar isn't in place with an in-cap coil, the coil WILL NOT MAKE SPARK. This bar HAS to be in place for a coil in cap coil for it to make spark, Doesn't have to be there for a remote, off cap coil changeover.

B-2) The small black wire that comes out of the coil on the in-cap coils is the second part of the coil ground, and has to be connected to the coil yoke to work. This wire grounds through the coil yoke, to the ground strap, three prong connector on the cap and ground wire, to the body at the module mounting area. If this wire isn't connected, no spark.

Spark plug wires. An HEI requires a wire set that has these features, magnetic suppression, spiral, or "magna" core, and be of sufficient diameter to allow the spiral core to effectively shield the voltage running through the wire. That said, steel and copper wire aren't shielded as a rule, and shouldn't be used with any good HEI or better electronic ignition system. The reason we need to run this specialty wire type is that wires will leak if given the chance, and when that happens, the leakage, referred to as 'RF leakage" (radio frequency) and can cause wires to magnetically feed voltage to more than one spark plug at once. Feeding more than one plug at any one time overworks the module and coil, and failure can result, along with misfire, early/late fire and other tuning/performance issues/problems.

Contrary to what some will also say, low voltage, as in still using the resistor or a resistor wire, will not kill an HEI module,. It will make the overall spark weaker exponentially as volts are reduced. After a certain level of volt input lowering, the module will simply stop working from lack of volts, and the system will simply not idle. Once again, low volts will not harm an HEI module, it'll just stop malking spark when it gets to the point it can no longer run on what isn't there. Add volts, it will come back alive again.

HEI modules need two things to be happy, a good ground and insulating grease to stay as cool as possible.

Grounding is accomplished with the screws on some modules, others ground from their bottom pads. Some modules will have a steel ring at one of the holddown screw bosses on the module top, THIS is the ground for those type modules. Modules that don't have the ring ground through their metal back plates.

Excessive heat can also destroy modules. The grease used on the underside of an HEI module is special silicone based grease designed to transfer heat from one surace to another. IT IS NOT DI-ELECTRIC GREASE. Di-electric grease is used for other things electrical, and shouldn't be used on module to body interfaces. Also, the silicone greases that we need for modules are HEAT TRANSFER TYPES, NOT HEAT BARRIER TYPES. Obviously, barrier greases would retain heat at the module source, not help to cool them.

Electrical connections at the module terminals need to be kept clean, and tight. Corrosion isn't wanted there, nor are loose connects. That kind of issue causes resistance, which is heat, which is death to the modules. These terminal connects ARE the correct places for di-electric greases to be used.

Caps/rotors can also make for excessive resistance, and can also lead to module failure. We all have heard of HEI rotors with burn through under the contact springs. It happens, and when it does, resistance and heat will kill the modules, and coils as well, if a person has a great deal of luck. And, as ozone buildup accumulates on the rotor tip and wire terminals, resistance is raised, usually, this isn't a serious issue, but a copper terminal cap is mandatory for good cap health. Avoid aluminum terminal caps.
 
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kaidenshi

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...snip...

Excellent, excellent info, thanks! That's an extremely thorough take on it, and I think you're on to something with the Accel distributor's coil or other internal issue being bad. Like I'd said before, after first putting in the Accel distributor, I started burning through tachs, but I didn't really make the connection because I had also just changed the entire engine not long before that, and assumed it was some other issue. In retrospect, I should have followed up on the dying tachs.

I think I'm going to take your advice and find an OEM distributor (used or rebuilt), and give it a go. I'm not so concerned with maximum performance (if so I'd have gotten a more expensive distributor in the first place) but more with just getting her back on the road.

Thanks again and I'll be sure to follow up!

Edit to add: I did replace the plugs and plug wires about a year before all this cropped up, and I don't think I got the best ones available but I didn't cheap out either. Basically, they were the ones the auto parts place recommended for an HEI distributor for a pre-1987 350 engine. So I don't *think* it's crosstalk or leakage. But, if all else fails I'll replace those again with something that is as you described.
 
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chengny

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But, if all else fails I'll replace those again with something that is as you described.

No, no - the discussion was; What - if anything - external to the distributor can cause it's internals to fail. Those 4 scenarios I offered were just all the ways I have ever heard of - or witnessed. I don't believe in the bad plug wires can kill the module theory.

4. Really bad plug wires that can cross feed the sparks between them. There is more on this below. Personally, I think it's an urban legend - I have seen HEI systems keep running (poorly) with cross-firing. When the wires are replaced - it's back to normal.
 

kaidenshi

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But, if all else fails I'll replace those again with something that is as you described.

No, no - the discussion was; What - if anything - external to the distributor can cause it's internals to fail. Those 4 scenarios I offered were just all the ways I have ever heard of - or witnessed. I don't believe in the bad plug wires can kill the module theory.

4. Really bad plug wires that can cross feed the sparks between them. There is more on this below. Personally, I think it's an urban legend - I have seen HEI systems keep running (poorly) with cross-firing. When the wires are replaced - it's back to normal.


Gotcha. What I mean is, I don't think the plug wires have anything to do with the ignition issue, but if I do fix the ignition and it's still bogging down in mid to high RPMs I'll look into the plug wires as a last resort for that specific issue. But I intend to track down the root cause for the ignition module dying, alongside replacing worn battery cables and such, so I'm not constantly throwing parts at it. Hopefully next week I'll have a couple of days off in a row to get some work done on it. Thanks again!
 

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Gotcha. What I mean is, I don't think the plug wires have anything to do with the ignition issue, but if I do fix the ignition and it's still bogging down in mid to high RPMs I'll look into the plug wires as a last resort for that specific issue. But I intend to track down the root cause for the ignition module dying, alongside replacing worn battery cables and such, so I'm not constantly throwing parts at it. Hopefully next week I'll have a couple of days off in a row to get some work done on it. Thanks again!

I didn't even know that this issue was RPM related. I thought you have been putting in new modules/coils and as quickly as you replace them and begin driving normally they fail.

Are you saying the the truck will idle nicely all day long and the coil/module group will show no ill effects - but as soon as you drive (and the engine speed increases) performance drops off and does not return. Then after the stall you check the distributor internals and find burnt components?

If the components are consistently found to be bad after only the engine speed is increased above idle, but never fail at low rpm, check the coil to module wires carefully.

Maybe we have to should at the beginning - I think we're losing focus (when I say "we", I mean me).

Prior to the day your friend had the truck (and it stalled and the fuel line failed and then it would not restart even after the fuel supply had been re-established and then the tow truck came and took it away - 'member that day) was it exhibiting any performance problems - or was it running as well as you'd expect of a 34 year old truck?
 
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kaidenshi

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Prior to the day your friend had the truck (and it stalled and the fuel line failed and then it would not restart even after the fuel supply had been re-established and then the tow truck came and took it away - 'member that day) was it exhibiting any performance problems - or was it running as well as you'd expect of a 34 year old truck?

Yes, it was running mostly fine, plenty of power and no stalling or bogging down, until it died on him. I say "mostly fine" because every now and then it would hiccup a bit if I was cruising in 3rd (highest gear, SM465 tranny) and let off the gas a bit. But I've had that happen with several SBC cars and trucks in the past so I didn't think anything of it (feels kind of like my vacuum advance isn't set exactly right), and I doubt that it's related to the current issue. But overall, it never let me down until after it died with my friend. I will also say that it has been killing tachs for a couple of years now, and I've had that Accel distributor a couple of years...hmmm.

Anyway, from the day I got it towed home, it has killed two ignition modules, even after swapping the coil and cap after the first module (the one that came with the Accel distro) failed. After I replaced the first module, it would run but would get really rough at 2500-3500 or so RPM, no matter which gear I was in, or just sitting in neutral and pushing the pedal to get it there. After several starts, the replacement module popped, and that's where I am now.

As for it being a 34 year old truck, yes it is but the engine was built in 2012 :) and the carb, distributor, battery, and starter have all been put on either during or since the engine swap. The age factor is why I'm planning to replace all the starting/charging wires (battery cables/clamps, ignition to starter wire, etc) since they aren't in the best shape. I'm also going to change the ground straps just as a matter of course, unless it's obvious they are fine (visually and with a meter).
 

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