Vince's TBI woes, progressive revelations, and tbi mods.

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Catbox

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I was driving home from Taco Bell the other day and all was just fine.
Until the Sub stumbled, let out the biggest backfire I have ever heard and recovered.
Then the rest of the way home I fought it to run.

I believe that the little 90 out of the throttle body finally split causing a vacuum leak.
That made it stumble and backfire thus blowing the fitting off and making it a pain in the buttski.

A quick look around and I spotted it all popped apart and dead.
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A piece of hose and back to it we are.
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Bextreme04

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I was driving home from Taco Bell the other day and all was just fine.
Until the Sub stumbled, let out the biggest backfire I have ever heard and recovered.
Then the rest of the way home I fought it to run.

I believe that the little 90 out of the throttle body finally split causing a vacuum leak.
That made it stumble and backfire thus blowing the fitting off and making it a pain in the buttski.

A quick look around and I spotted it all popped apart and dead.
You must be registered for see images attach


You must be registered for see images attach


You must be registered for see images attach


A piece of hose and back to it we are.
You must be registered for see images attach

Yikes, that's a hell of a vacuum leak!
 

Slybeanx

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I have looked into different ecm types.( if thats what that is), i was looking at Dynamic EFI also.


Sorry i missed your reply i didnt know you commented, weird. :confused:

All good, its a stand alone ECM, I run my BMW on it. Very easy to tune very helpful community for figuring out issues etc. the top tier version can run an LS if you decide to change engines ever or boost
 

Vbb199

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Ok, firstly, id like to thank @Bextreme04 for giving me a rundown on the ECM data i pulled yesterday, he took the time to have a telephone call while we looked at the Excel document from a pull yesterday, and explain what it all meant, etc etc.

Several things were noted within the pull that lasted a duration of 80 seconds, which explains my sporatic engine performance and idle im getting.

The pull was from in drive, foot on brake, then accelerating to 81mph, then a gradual decrease in vehicle speed back down to a slow speed to make a right turn.


Please note, this data was recorded WITH the IAC hooked back up.


1. My TPS% reading sitting with foot on brake is a constant 38%. Something is defunct there.

2. The max WOT throttle TPS voltage i got in the pull was like, 3.7v, when in reality i should be getting 4.7v

3. O2 mV ranged as high as 900 mV (which is apparently equivalent to 14.7 afr) to sporatically as low as 130ish mV. After installing the Bosche o2, i learned from HarrisTuning that apparently the boshe units do not play nice with TBI. My data reflects that. Very sporatic readings that were never consistent.

4. Over a duration of 7 seconds, foot on brake, in drive, MAP kpa started at 44, and ended at 47 with my foot on the brake. I suspect i must have a vacuum leak at the booster or line, because this morning, idling, it maintained a steady 27-28 kpa.

5. The o2 readings gave a pretty much solid "rich" feedback on the switched signal the entire time.


6. I want to add most importantly, the most power was killed at the knock sensor.

Normal driving, keeping the motor under 3500 rpms, i noted 4 knocks. This morning upon cold start up, from 37° to 180° CTS, engine only knocked 3 times on startup, and never again. 2 of those i assume to be self test.

During the pull last night, i got a total of 35 knocks, but the numbers DRASTICALLY increased from 4 to 19 knocks when over 3500 rpms.

After those knocks occured and the motor was ran as high as 4175 rpms, no more knocks occured, they topped out at 35 knocks, and never again.

-------------------------------------------------------------------




My thoughts on all this is, i definitely have a vacuum leak, and since i couldnt discover the leak externally, and since the motor had sat for apparently a period of 8-10 years before i touched it, im suspecting broke down intake gaskets.


I also want to note, i occasionally catch a exhaust leak on my drivers bank, the samd side as the o2. That could be my sporatic mV readings, but im more inclined to lean with an expert of tbi, (brian harris at HarrisTuning) and the bosche just doesnt play nicely with the tbi.

My tps, im unsure where to even start with that, as previously stated, under the hood, i can take the throttle arm, with multimeter, open it to WOT and get 4.7 volts.... inside the cab with data logger, reading only comes out to 3.8 at WOT
Im going to have my wife or a friend press the pedal inside the cab for me while i check tps voltage output with a multimeter. That might be that carpet thickness @gmbellew

I saw a maximum of 198% on the tps, but no more than 3.8v output. I didnt think it was even supposed to advance to 198%

Something is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Regardless, im getting cheated out of around 1 whole volt of TPS, which means that leaves alot of ign advance on the table.


Addressing the knocking, im personally of the mindset im not producing a complete combustion cycle.

The motor ran its best with 1-2° of advance at base timing, and with a large .055ish plug gap. I turned all that back down to tow because if spark knock, now with a 4.10 ratio, the motor wont labor nearly as much.

But on another note, my ESC module could just simply be ******* me.


Thoughts anyone? @Chevyguy @1987 GMC Jimmy

Im open your suggestions.
 

Vbb199

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Attached below ive uploaded the logfile.

***NOTE THE EXTENSION IS .PDF, IT MUST BE CHANGED BACK TO ".CSV" IN ORDER TO OPEN IT***


GmSquarebody's forum wouldn't let me upload a .csv file.



The extension of .csv can be viewed with microsoft Excel, or with Google Sheets.


The snapshots are in 160 baud rate so at high rpms, it only catches 1,000 rpm transitions.

Low speeds it will capture 300 rpm transitions.
 

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gmbellew

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Dont get caught up by the calculation hacks for TPS %, vacuum, etc in the app. I dont believe they are always correct. It is better to go by the sensor voltages or direct readings.
 

Vbb199

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Dont get caught up by the calculation hacks for TPS %, vacuum, etc in the app. I dont believe they are always correct. It is better to go by the sensor voltages or direct readings.


Elaborate on this, calculation hacks?
 

Bextreme04

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Elaborate on this, calculation hacks?

What he's saying is that the voltage readings are absolutely what the ECU is seeing, but the percentage is likely something that the app itself is calculating based on some unknown algorithm. Based on the voltages you are seeing, there is definitely an issue. The TPS % numbers are also obviously wonky, but they are wrong in a way that makes it more likely to be a stupid conversion mistake by the app rather than an ecu issue. Its also possible your tuner did something weird and put something wrong into the tune, but it is far less likely.
 

Catbox

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I have $0.02 to add.

Last night we drove the Sub 80 miles to pick up a set of headers for the truck.
About 10 miles in it had a nasty stumble and backfire like it did the other day coming home from Taco Bell. We pulled over and started looking for more vacuum leaks and found none.

One of the plug wire holders popped off the stock holder and melted to the exhaust manifold.
Perhaps we damaged a wire, nope.
But we zip tied the wires up and out of the way to make sure it didn't happen again.

Took off and not much longer it did it again.
It was getting dark out and when the backfire let off, it lit up the whole side of the road.
Max was impressed and both of us were a bit nervous.

We pulled over again and found no issues.

While standing there at the passenger fender pondering issues, I noticed it sounded like the injectors were operating quite loudly. Max checked them and they were not the culprit.

It turns out the PCV valve was making all the noise at idle.
Ticka, Ticka, Ticka, Ticka, Ticka, Ticka, Ticka, Ticka, Ticka, Ticka, Ticka, Ticka...
Noisy and fast.

Seeing as the other day when this happened, it was a lean backfire caused by cracked hoses.
So we pulled the valve and it is super loose.
We plugged the hose with a bolt we had and then cautiously took off down the road again.

That seemed to do the trick as it never stumbled, died, or backfired the rest of the trip.

So, don't forget the PCV can cause havoc on these systems as well...
 

Vbb199

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I have $0.02 to add.

Last night we drove the Sub 80 miles to pick up a set of headers for the truck.
About 10 miles in it had a nasty stumble and backfire like it did the other day coming home from Taco Bell. We pulled over and started looking for more vacuum leaks and found none.

One of the plug wire holders popped off the stock holder and melted to the exhaust manifold.
Perhaps we damaged a wire, nope.
But we zip tied the wires up and out of the way to make sure it didn't happen again.

Took off and not much longer it did it again.
It was getting dark out and when the backfire let off, it lit up the whole side of the road.
Max was impressed and both of us were a bit nervous.

We pulled over again and found no issues.

While standing there at the passenger fender pondering issues, I noticed it sounded like the injectors were operating quite loudly. Max checked them and they were not the culprit.

It turns out the PCV valve was making all the noise at idle.
Ticka, Ticka, Ticka, Ticka, Ticka, Ticka, Ticka, Ticka, Ticka, Ticka, Ticka, Ticka...
Noisy and fast.

Seeing as the other day when this happened, it was a lean backfire caused by cracked hoses.
So we pulled the valve and it is super loose.
We plugged the hose with a bolt we had and then cautiously took off down the road again.

That seemed to do the trick as it never stumbled, died, or backfired the rest of the trip.

So, don't forget the PCV can cause havoc on these systems as well...


Agreed, i just replaced the PCV recently, like, a couple days ago.
However a vacuum leak should cause an rich condition, shouldnt it?

Im thinking this weekend im going pull the intake off off the truck, inspect it, possibly mill down both sides if needed, and reseal it. After discussing things with eric on the phone last night, and with a buddy, and with my dad, the 4 of us all tend to lean towards a probable vacuum leak within the intake.

(Detoriated intake gaskets from resting for months and months)


The tbi gaskets were **** and crumbled when i first got the truck going and overhauled it, so im inclined to think the intake gaskets might be ******. My dad elude today that years and years ago, he parked it prior to its permanent resting place, for the total of 6 months, and after that, he noticed the power drastically decreased also.
 

Vbb199

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What he's saying is that the voltage readings are absolutely what the ECU is seeing, but the percentage is likely something that the app itself is calculating based on some unknown algorithm. Based on the voltages you are seeing, there is definitely an issue. The TPS % numbers are also obviously wonky, but they are wrong in a way that makes it more likely to be a stupid conversion mistake by the app rather than an ecu issue. Its also possible your tuner did something weird and put something wrong into the tune, but it is far less likely.



Im sitting here just thinking to myself... i wonder if the tuner set the TPS at 38% as a means of advancing timing at idle, for a little more low end torque off the line. :005:
 

Bextreme04

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Agreed, i just replaced the PCV recently, like, a couple days ago.
However a vacuum leak should cause an rich condition, shouldnt it?

Im thinking this weekend im going pull the intake off off the truck, inspect it, possibly mill down both sides if needed, and reseal it. After discussing things with eric on the phone last night, and with a buddy, and with my dad, the 4 of us all tend to lean towards a probable vacuum leak within the intake.

(Detoriated intake gaskets from resting for months and months)


The tbi gaskets were **** and crumbled when i first got the truck going and overhauled it, so im inclined to think the intake gaskets might be ******. My dad elude today that years and years ago, he parked it prior to its permanent resting place, for the total of 6 months, and after that, he noticed the power drastically decreased also.
A vacuum leak is unmetered air, which means it’s air getting into the engine that the ECU doesn’t know about and therefore doesn’t provide fuel for. This means you have too little fuel for the air(lean) that is actually in the engine.
 

Vbb199

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A vacuum leak is unmetered air, which means it’s air getting into the engine that the ECU doesn’t know about and therefore doesn’t provide fuel for. This means you have too little fuel for the air(lean) that is actually in the engine.


I figured in the case of TBI, if it detects a vacuum leak (MAP), it tries to adjust for it.
 

Bextreme04

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It’s too many variables. It can’t tell how much air mass is going in based on MAP unless it knows some other fixed variables. If you have a leak, you are passing more volume for a given manifold vacuum reading than it expects and therefore it could go outside of the range that it can adjust for. The saving grace for EFI and small leaks is that you are reading A/F ratio through the o2 sensor and the ECU is correcting fueling based on that. If the leak is too big it will need more correction than the ECU can give though.
 

Vbb199

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It’s too many variables. It can’t tell how much air mass is going in based on MAP unless it knows some other fixed variables. If you have a leak, you are passing more volume for a given manifold vacuum reading than it expects and therefore it could go outside of the range that it can adjust for. The saving grace for EFI and small leaks is that you are reading A/F ratio through the o2 sensor and the ECU is correcting fueling based on that. If the leak is too big it will need more correction than the ECU can give though.


Right, thats what ive been putting together from our conversation, and reading all day.

The leak isnt massive, but it is dropping my kPa readings lower than what they should be at, reaking havoc.
 

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