Newbie: Idles rough, stalls when put into gear!

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glockholiday

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That canister behind the drivers headlight is a charcoal filter. One hose is the vent from the fuel tank, the other goes up to the intake manifold or TBI. It keeps a vacuum on the fuel tank so any fuel vapors go into the engine instead of the atmosphere.

Long story short = emissions crap. But if they are not connected then you have a vacuum leak.

My method for finding vacuum leaks (not recommended, for those internet lawyers). Is start the engine cold (to prevent fires) and spray brake or carb cleaner around the intake manifold and TBI area, if it sucks some brake cleaner in it will rev up a little.
 

chengny

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that the PO swapped a 350 into, and left two bearings out of a tranny rebuild "so it would shift hard" but all it does is shift hard into reverse.

IDK exactly what that all means, but I think it might possibly be relevant to your issue as described. But before you even bother reading the rest of this post, I have to ask a couple of questions;

First, I assume the "350" that was swapped into the truck refers to the motor and not a TH350 transmission - right? And that the engine came from a different model/year truck?

Next assumption - the transmission is a 700R4 with a TCC (torque converter clutch). Is the TCC wired up and connected to a power source?

If the truck has a TCC type transmission and it is wired to a power source (and the currently installed engine/factory ECM are not compatible), read on. If any of those things are not true... you can skip the rest of this. On the other hand, if those assumptions are correct, you might want to look into the possibility that your TCC is not unlocking. When that occurs, it is essentially the same as not disengaging the clutch on a manual transmission while the truck is stationary - well, not exactly that bad - because there is some slip even with an overdrive equipped transmission.

Recently, the truck has been stalling out when put into gear with any load on it (trying to R up hill or trying to D up hill).
If I shift the transfer case into N or 4L, it won't die, so I tried crawling up a hill in 4L, then shifting back into 2L and driving back down the hill.


You don't mention what happens if the transfer case is shifted to 4H - does doing that also allow the engine to idle properly?

All is fine until I come to a stop sign, then the poor idle returns and it dies. When it is my turn to proceed through the intersection, it creeps, missing and sputtering, and if I give it any fuel it dies. Sometimes I can accelerate just right to bring it out of the rough idle, and it won't die.

I am guessing that the above statement is meant to describe how the truck acts when coming off cruising speed (and to a complete stop) only when operating in 2WD? But, how about if the transfer case is in either of the 4WD positions? If the TC is in 4WD, is the engine able to maintain a proper idle while the truck is stationary - and then, accelerate normally after coming off idle?

So I put it in R and it died, as there was a slight downgrade on the lot so there was a load on the truck. After restarting and dying about 20 times I put it in 4L and was able to get to a flat surface, yet it didn't stay running in D in 2L until I was going downhill.

Shifting the transmission into neutral always seems to eliminate the idle problem - correct?

from searching through the internet, I gather it may be a Torque Converter issue?

I think you're on the right track. But, since shifting the transfer case to a 4WD position seems to alleviate the problem, it is a possibility that the stalling is due to a TCC that is not releasing as designed (as opposed to a torque converter issue).


The engagement of the TCC is normally controlled by the ECM. The ECM monitors the following sensors to determine whether the TCC should be energized:

1. VSS (vehicle speed sensor) – road speed must be above 30 MPH

2. Engine coolant temperature – must be above 149 F

3. TPS (throttle position sensor) – vehicle must be at a steady speed (not rapidly accelerating or decelerating.


4. The brake switch – must be closed (i.e. the brakes are not being applied)

5. The 4WD relay. If the truck is equipped with 4WD - and the transfer case must be in either the N or 2WD position – to enable the TCC.


So, say the PO just dropped in any old engine - one that did not have the right sensors for the ECM (he modified the transmission), but he still wanted to have overdrive capability... it would be very easy to just hot wire the TCC solenoid straight to the brake switch. That would leave only the 4WD relay to disable the TCC.

Anyway, for this scenario to occur, the brake switch would have to be bad - and not opening when the brake pedal is applied. But other than that, if the ECM is not wired to the correct - engine mounted – sensors, the only other component that would disable the TCC would be the 4WD relay. It shouldn’t apply power to the TCC without the above permissives being met. But given the fact that the TCC solenoid might simply be hot wired around the ECM, the only remaining controls would be the 4WD relay and the brake safety switch.

Simple enough to diagnose – disconnect one of the wires from the brake switch. The hot wire to the brake switch is brown or brown/white. Pull it and see if the situation improves - without having to put the transfer case in 4WD.
 
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CTread08

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Correct - the motor was a 350, not trans. The trans is a TH400, and the PO told me that it was a crate motor 350 he replaced the factory 305 with. Last night the truck stalled in 4H as well. The only time it wouldn't stall is when it was in N or 4L. The trans is a 3spd, without OD. Last night, the temperature was 35 degrees when all these problems were occurring, rough idle, stalling when put in gear, etc. This morning, it was 45 degrees and there were no issues to report. No sputtering, no stalling, no missing, etc.
 

chengny

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Wow that's strange, in my experience a Chevy 350 will start with the slightest click of the key and run well no matter how cold the weather conditions - unless it already runs crappy all the time. Never seen them effected by ambient temps.

TBI - right?

Not that this should be effected by cold, but have you inspected/cleaned the IAC valve? Also check the TPS - they kind of work together to maintain idle speed.
 
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Georgeb

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Could a faulty coolant temp sensor be a possability?
 

CTread08

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I'll add those to the possible list of culprits to check. I noticed it runs worse in the cold, versus the warmer days. This weekend is supposed to be in the 50's all weekend so i'll see if the problems return, or if they don't return until the cold returns. This morning (again 45 degrees) it started up good and idled high until it got warm, then once warm it returned to what I'd consider a normal idle speed, and you could hear a light surging of rpms. Not near as severe as the sputter/choking/stalling, but the surging of rpms could definitely be heard.
 

chengny

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Could a faulty coolant temp sensor be a possability?

I wouldn't imagine the coolant temp sensor would cause this particular problem.
The ECM does use that input to control many outputs, but the engine should start and idle correctly even without a CTS signal. You know what I mean, there are times when - even if the sensor is working correctly - but it is extremely cold outside, the engine is still expected to start.

The CTS input to the ECM is more about maintaining ideal engine performance when the coolant is at operating temperature and under load - as opposed to preventing/assisting cold starts.

This morning (again 45 degrees) it started up good and idled high until it got warm, then once warm it returned to what I'd consider a normal idle speed, and you could hear a light surging of rpms. Not near as severe as the sputter/choking/stalling, but the surging of rpms could definitely be heard.

Given the above, I'd start by looking for a sticking IAC valve or a faulty TPS (or the associated wiring). Another prime suspect - when extended cranking times/erratic idle speeds - are the issue, is the CPS (crankshaft position sensor). That sensor is the primary input to the ECM for controlling ignition timing and injection duration.


Here is some info you might find helpful:

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bucket

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FWIW, the guy's over at GMT400 (my DD is a 95 GMC TBI), swear up and down that anything more than the factory 0 degrees causes knocking.

Kinda blew my mind, I've never seen a motor that didn't enjoy some timing.

I don't know what to say about that, other than the later models may have a little more advance in the programming or something. Even at that, 0* is crap. My buddy's '93 Burb is happily running around at 8*, but it did ping under load with any more than that. But it also has around 220K on it.
 

chengny

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And keep in mind; if I'm reading this correctly, Corey has no idea as to the vintage of the currently installed engine. The PO replaced the original factory motor.

It appears like he'll have to learn how to time an engine by ear.
 

CTread08

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UPDATE: This morning it was 35 degrees, and the symptoms came back, missing, running rough, almost stalling, etc. Even when going down hill, if I would try to give it some fuel, it would start its sputtering and acting like it was going to die so I had to back it off then it seemed like it would line out and I could increase speed slightly. It seemed like when it would shift up a gear it would start running bad immediately into a higher gear, so I would have to let off the fuel and then ease back in to it real slightly. Also, I had to go out of town so I did not have any time to begin tackling the list I was given. I will attempt to change everything through the week and this coming weekend.
 

87scotty

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Almost sounds like your lacking fuel cooler air requires more fuel my snowmobile ran really good in below 0 temps and terrible at 30degrees come to find out po had jetted it and it was getting way to much fuel! Your problem sounds like the opposite
 

87scotty

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I would just start with all the obvious wear parts
 

yevgenievich

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have not read all the discussion, but worth checking all the vacuum hoses
 

CTread08

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UPDATE: So at the end of the week I started the truck and let it warm up (it was around 30-35) for around 10 minutes or so, then tried to drive it, as soon as I put it in D it died again. Put it in P, started back, same result. So I drove my Cruze to work instead. Once I got home (temp was around 40-45 now) I jumped right in it and drove it down the road a mile or two round trip and it ran fine. Stopped at the bottom of a hill and crawled up it, no issues. I played with it a little at the top of the hill because it was pretty flat. I noticed that, at a complete stop, if i stomped on it at all, in either D or R, it would do the sputtering/choking/almost dying. If I eased into the throttle all was fine. However, after playing around with the truck and letting it get warm, upon returning to my driveway, I experienced the same symptoms as when I was stuck in the auto zone parking lot. Stalling upon being placed in gear, trying to feather throttle only to have it choke out more, etc. Fought the thing for 10 minutes trying to get it in the driveway, finally gave up and was able to maneuver it out of the road, parking it in front of my house. Saturday I got in it, cold, not allowing it to warm up, and drove it and it drove fine (temps in the mid to upper 50's) and today I drove it around a lot with no issues as temps were in the upper 50's/60's all day. This afternoon I changed the oil and filter for the first time since I've had the truck (and there was a ton of metal on the drain plug) and changed the plugs which were light tan, not black to signify too much fuel/fouling. Earlier in the week I had changed the fuel filter and the front engine coolant temp sensor. On the way home this evening, it did sputter a little bit, but if I feather the throttle it got through it and picked up and took off, and once warm it was what I would consider "fine" at this point, with all things considered. When i looked in the TBI i noticed droplets on the silver discs (I'm sure someone will tell me the technical name) in the TBI, but couldn't find the conical shape of fuel spray that I had read about, granted I'm still not 100% sure where to look for the cone shape either. I also pulled code 22 (TPS voltage low) and 44 (O2 sensor - lean exhaust) off the truck as well today using the paper clip trick.

I haven't tried jumping in the truck and driving it cold, while the air temperature was also cold. I also didn't start the truck and let it warm up and then drive it while the temps have been warmer either though. I fear that it is related to the Torque Converter still, as once the truck is warm it seems the symptoms return, unless the air temperature is warm, then all is hidden for the most part.

Thanks again for the help everyone.

Still scratching my head...
 

CTread08

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Also looked at the canister and saw the vacuum tube that is supposed to route to the TBI is just sitting on top of the fender, and there is a plug in its place on the TBI side. Advice is appreciated.
 

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