Cluster F*** Timing

[Boone83K10]

OK I got the timing tab on. TDC lined up with 0 on the tab so that is good. Warmed up the motor, plugged the advance and fired the light down there. Not the greatest visibility but the engine was already set at 14 degree BTDC. I assume that is about right, I've read 12 is a good start. Now to pull that intake and get the oil leak fixed. I also bought new plugs, wires, cap and rotor for ***** n giggles...

keep you posted

 

[bucket]

Just as general info:

Diameter of the balancer is not the issue.

More likely it's a parts specification problem. Often, a post-1976 balancer will be mounted on an engine with a pre-76 timing chain cover. The timing mark on a 76+ balancer is not compatible with the location of the timing tab on a pre-76 chain cover. In 1976 GM moved the slot on the balancer - CCW about 12 degrees.

Before the shift, when #1 cylinder fired and the distributor was properly timed, the balancer mark was at around 2 o'clock.

When post 76 SBC's are timed correctly, the balancer mark will be at about 12 o'clock when #1 fires.


Here are some images to help explain.

This shows a late model balancer on an engine with an early timing cover. The drawn-in arrow points to the hub keyway on one end and to where the timing mark would be on an early SBC. The actual mark is what you would find on a post 76 balancer:

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A 1986 350 with stock balancer and timing cover/tab:

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An aftermarket balancer with dual timing marks:

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As usual, good info! However, I have or have had several cars and trucks that contradict this. When I get a chance I'll go do some hood poppin.

 

[chengny]

I wasn't very succint, maybe this will make more sense:

There are three locations for the Timing Mark on the Harmonic Balancer.

The early style balancer Pre-1969 have the Timing mark 2-degrees before the key way Center Line.

The second Timing mark used from 1969 through the mid 80' is 10-degrees before the key way Center Line.

The third Timing mark used is 30-degrees before the key way center line.


Timing marks in relationship to the balancer keyway by years:

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[Boone83K10]

Ok I got the intake off... too many accessory bolts!!

They had used the rubber end gaskets...they were blown out!

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Here is the intake laying on the ground.. it was very hard to get some bolts with carb still on.

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Found a few things very wrong...

the post for wire #2 was broken on the cap.. which was the most carbon fouled plug
rotor was all rusty on contacts and brittle...
this has seen better days... it's all GM, must be original or at least it looks 30 year old. the weights would not even snap back.. they were just flopping around and would open all the way with little spinning effort.

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I assume this means I will have to retime it all over again.

solution!

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will finish this up tomorrow.

 

[HotRodPC]

Ok I got the intake off... too many accessory bolts!!

They had used the rubber end gaskets...they were blown out!

You must be registered for see images attach

Here is the intake laying on the ground.. it was very hard to get some bolts with carb still on.

You must be registered for see images attach

Found a few things very wrong...

the post for wire #2 was broken on the cap.. which was the most carbon fouled plug
rotor was all rusty on contacts and brittle...
this has seen better days... it's all GM, must be original or at least it looks 30 year old. the weights would not even snap back.. they were just flopping around and would open all the way with little spinning effort.

You must be registered for see images attach

I assume this means I will have to retime it all over again.

solution!

You must be registered for see images attach

will finish this up tomorrow.

Looks like one of those Skip White Ebay $49 dizzies. You can't beat those for the money. I know they are China made but so far not so bad on the 1 I'm using in the 454. But then again, the 454 isn't running right and it's dizzy related. Feel Lucky, you're getting some help on your thread. I'm sure I'll get mine fixed too. Just waiting on weather to get better so my ailments will allow me to function.

 

[HotRodPC]

Hmmm, If I'm not mistaken, those heads look like they have some ported intake runners. At least maybe gasket ported??? Kinda hard to tell with the pic angle and distance.

 

[HotRodPC]

Damn, hate to keep muddying up the thread, but the more I notice in the pics.....

So are you sure this is a 350 motor? I guess so , you posted the cast # at the first post didn't you? Must be a real early block. I notice the intake rubber gasket style you need to be using. See the holes in the block? There is 2 type of gaskets that can be used there. You need the earlier kind with the **** on the gaskets where the gaskets can't slip and someone may have the used the later type with the lips that straddle each side. Or mabye I'm smoking crack and my memory is failing. Lemme know if your intake gasket doesn't come with the right ones. I think I got a spare set of those type. I also notice you've got the earlier intake too. One like for a small journal small block. You can tell by the case part where the old Oil fill tube would have went. I've got one of those early type too.

 

[MrMarty51]

Looks like one of those Skip White Ebay $49 dizzies. You can't beat those for the money. I know they are China made but so far not so bad on the 1 I'm using in the 454. But then again, the 454 isn't running right and it's dizzy related. Feel Lucky, you're getting some help on your thread. I'm sure I'll get mine fixed too. Just waiting on weather to get better so my ailments will allow me to function.

I got opne a them dizzy`z from ebay for the 59 Power Wagon,it seems to have a bit of a wobble in it whilst the engiene is running,and it too has a bit of a misfire.
I got them kinds of weather related ailments,I get in the garage an works/tinkers when I`m not quite feeling up toit.

Hmmm, If I'm not mistaken, those heads look like they have some ported intake runners. At least maybe gasket ported??? Kinda hard to tell with the pic angle and distance.

Looks to be some serious grubbing been done on them heads,at least to Me,good catch on that one.

 

[89Suburban]

I got opne a them dizzy`z from ebay for the 59 Power Wagon,it seems to have a bit of a wobble in it whilst the engiene is running,and it too has a bit of a misfire.

That's just an old Dodge being an old Dodge. The last Dodge truck I owned was an '85 Ramcharger. I modified a GM HEI dizzy to run in it.

 

[Boone83K10]

Damn, hate to keep muddying up the thread, but the more I notice in the pics.....

So are you sure this is a 350 motor? I guess so , you posted the cast # at the first post didn't you? Must be a real early block. I notice the intake rubber gasket style you need to be using. See the holes in the block? There is 2 type of gaskets that can be used there. You need the earlier kind with the **** on the gaskets where the gaskets can't slip and someone may have the used the later type with the lips that straddle each side. Or mabye I'm smoking crack and my memory is failing. Lemme know if your intake gasket doesn't come with the right ones. I think I got a spare set of those type. I also notice you've got the earlier intake too. One like for a small journal small block. You can tell by the case part where the old Oil fill tube would have went. I've got one of those early type too.

Yes this is a 350 because I put the casting number up. I said that the engine has been rebuilt because the VIN casting on the passenger head pad is smooth. I do believe it has had some porting, the runners were extremely smooth in my opinion. The intake is an Edelbrock 2101. I did NOT reuse rubber end gaskets, I put some RTV at the corners of the head/block then ran a nice thick bead on the end surfaces overlapping the manifold gaskets.

That is not a $49 ebay distributor... It's a 250 dollar ACCEL performance distributor.

 

[bucket]

Yes this is a 350 because I put the casting number up. I said that the engine has been rebuilt because the VIN casting on the passenger head pad is smooth. I do believe it has had some porting, the runners were extremely smooth in my opinion. The intake is an Edelbrock 2101. I did NOT reuse rubber end gaskets, I put some RTV at the corners of the head/block then ran a nice thick bead on the end surfaces overlapping the manifold gaskets.

That is not a $49 ebay distributor... It's a 250 dollar ACCEL performance distributor.

Good, RTV is always a better option on the manifold ends!

So I guess Accel doesn't use tan colored caps now? I thought it was an MSD Street Fire dizzy, it looks exactly like the one I bought at Jeg's.

 

[Boone83K10]

Its all in. I thought I had set initial timing to 12 degrees but it was only at 4 when I started it??????? Now it's up to 6 degrees ( I have no clue if this is right). Idle is at 800 rpm in park, 650 in gear. I have lost vacuum ... it was around 14" at idle in park before.. now it is only 13". I have adjusted the carb.

What should I do....

 

[HotRodPC]

Its all in. I thought I had set initial timing to 12 degrees but it was only at 4 when I started it??????? Now it's up to 6 degrees ( I have no clue if this is right). Idle is at 800 rpm in park, 650 in gear. I have lost vacuum ... it was around 14" at idle in park before.. now it is only 13". I have adjusted the carb.

What should I do....

It's normal to bounce around a couple degrees. Timing chain slops, idle fluctuation which can advance your timing with centrifical advance off the weights depending on how loose or tight your springs are. Don't freak over a couple degrees. I was thinking that 14 was awful high. I'd be thinking in the neighborhood of 4-6 BTDC is good. Then rev the motor and watch for it to change. If it's advanceing a few degrees with every little bit of raise of rpm then call it good. 32 degrees is about all you should want total with both Vac and Centrifical advance, and that should be wel over 2000 rpm by that point IIRC. Again, I'll ask for back up, I'm rusty on some of this ****.

 

[Boone83K10]

Ok just got back from a drive. It ran ok before I tore it all down but now it seems "smoother". This may just be in my head but I didn't hear any pinging (detonation) while hwy cruising or various acceleration. I left it at 6 degrees BTDC. It advances quite smooth on revving and it goes way past the 16 on the timing mark when it is revved high and held. I don't have a timing tape so I don't know how far advanced it is getting.

Best news is there was no black on the bumper after I drove!!!!! and it isn't leaking oil.

 

[HotRodPC]

BTW, I found my pic of my cheap Skip White Dizzy I got off ebay. I should have gotten your style with the OE type coil cap. I've since changed mine. This on here is a PITA. I'm pretty sure these are all Pro Comp distributors made in China. They're not bad though. Careful on Intake manifolds though. I hear it's common you have to gasket port them yourself to make the ports match up, and sometimes, they've gone out of bounds and you'd have vac leaks. So some Pro Comp is OK, some is not. So far I hear the dizzies are fine.

And normally, Red is color for MSD or Mallory, but these are NOT Mallory or MSD. But they are brass terminal caps.