Mechanical fuel pump beef/info rant

AuroraGirl

Full Access Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2019
Posts
7,800
Reaction score
4,432
Location
Northern Wisconsin
First Name
Taylor
Truck Year
1978, 1980
Truck Model
K10, K25
Engine Size
400(?), 350
WOW @AuroraGirl I completely agree with your thoughts. I also want to say that adding to book time for completely legitimate reason is fine and very much needed at times, and some book times maybe listed incorrectly. Of course I understand that the book is suppose to be an estimate of time or a guide. Here is what I'll add to what you have already said. There are to my knowledge two companies that compile "book times" Mitchell and Alldata, (there maybe others I'm unaware of but those are the major ones anyway), they get those times from the automakers. Are those times correct all the time and under all conditions of course not. What I don't like is companies that run a labor matrix. For example every 1.0 hours job might be charged to the customer at 1.4 hours or more, Now that means a 3 hour job suddenly gets billed for 4.2 hours. That's a way for the shop to offer a lower labor rate, but make up for it by charging more time on every job, which is deceptive and not ethical IMO. Tech would still get the book listed amount of pay BTY. Charging a realistic amount of time for job, like in your example the shocks, charging say .9 or even an hour for that job I view as just fine, as long as that is realistic for that car. What I don't like is an automatic screw the customer and the tech system.
Oh yeah. Im glad t he work orders would list right on the thing what the labor hours was and the shop labor rate wasnt listed but it was correctly applied. The parts amount on parts we charged over the cost we would pay wasnt listed as transparently BUT we were well within our right to explain that we buy them from a store in town so if they were on hand there for 10 dollars whatever the percent was, we werent charging you 10 dollars so if they wanted to pick them up "heres the part number and which store I checked with" if they asked. If it was on our shelf of back stock for moog parts(monroe too) we would charge the same cost as we could sell them if they walked in and tried to buy them which to my understanding was pretty much retail auto store pricing for a customer any old day, so that was nice too. Definitely tho on the labor. If the shop wants to say the customer is paying for 3.4 hours to do something, and the tech is being paid what the book says, then by whatever sophistry 3.4 came from 2.8 or whatever , to me, it doesnt matter because youre now giving that tech the pay for the that time. To me,that is something clearly crossing a line of fraud especially when the labor structure is "by the book" if your book isnt giving you 3.4 and youre paying based on 2.8, then you have committed a wage theft, but if youre saying oh no its not because im robbing from the worker, its just to the customer, okay, then count yourself on fraud too. Lol.

Now I know for shops it sucks especially on warranty and stuff because the auto maker will reimburse what they say it takes to do the job, but that is a discussion to have with them because the people in the equation of customer, technician, dealer, and mega corporation there are only two entities who are both human and also at risk of true livelihood damage and its not the corporation or the dealer.


We also were able to order damn near any brand of tire that is sold and any size made and stocked somewhere remotely accessible, but we also were not disallowed to explain why on time it would take to get them, why we require a prepay or not, why they would ____ because for example, we didnt carry firestone but if you wanted firestone we could get firestone. But, if you are hoping to get them soon, you may be disapointed because the system will get those tires ordered but the normal day-to-day shipments to the store were priority on tires they must have partner ships or deals with then also at competition for truck space with the regular store. So during the holidays, you may have to wait for a spot on a truck for 4-6 large tires which is a considerable amount of space when thinking a pallet stacked 8 feet high or so with other stuff. So it was a "hey we can get them for ____ and hopefully in a week or two, but if you were to buy those off tirerack they may show up sooner, have a rebate or a deal going on, and not have to add another middle man to the equation" which I thought was fair and honest and not as ****** as it could be for them. However I could, and would be encouraged, to say, in your size we do have a nice fine looking set of cooper AT3's and I have one right over here if you want to see it!" LOL.

I didnt mind selling coopers, i did well because I could attest to the quality, I saw it in the comebacks/service/stories/and seeing how much mileage from the customers first install at 130k and now here they are at 170k and those were 8, 10 ply tires and they only want to get them again because Mr. Joe Smith said he uses his truck pretty darn hard and 40k on set of tires was leagues ahead of his previous set of ___. I know if I go in and take advantage of a nearby buy 2 get 2 that sometimes happen, I would probably get a set of cooper AT3 if buying for a truck. If for a car, I was thinking going to the dark side and getting high end michellins for my daily driver experience with a boat-turnpike-cruiser. If buying for my gma who is needing a set of tires come spring(I would argue now.. but who cares what I think, not like I know tires or have a lot of experience with them), getting a set of Bridgestone's blizzaks in whatever model or size I had previously looked up for a set of steels/yard wheels for her jeep and then probably ask her what she would want for her summer, which would probably be her current ones which are goodyear assurance weatherreadys which have served her well and me well currently on my buick.

I was also able to find a manufacture of the T125/60/16 or whatever the size is on my park avenues spare wheel. At this time a year half ago, they were no longer made by anyone in that size and it appears to have been picked up by someone who saw the value in these aging cars that are all running firestone and goodyear spares of that size from the 90s to 2000s who are keeping the car for the long haul and there are a great many of them across makes who used that size. Looks like a chinese Kumho or whatever and Continental are the two makes I could find on a quick search. That + a mid 2000s cadillac STS aluminum wheel in 5x114.3.. sucess. Lol.
 

SirRobyn0

Full Access Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2019
Posts
3,368
Reaction score
3,556
Location
In the woods in Western Washington
First Name
Rob
Truck Year
1984
Truck Model
C20
Engine Size
350
@AuroraGirl At least in Washington and I'm assuming this applies to most other states as I'm aware of a few national chains doing the labor matrix thing where like I was saying they will charge the customer a higher number of hours than the tech is getting paid, but perhaps they just take advantage where they can. Anyhow here at least it's not considered theft of wages as long as the tech makes at least minimum wage for the number of hours actually on the time clock for the week. Because as soon as someone signs up for a flat rate job nothing else is guaranteed. Unethical yes, illegal not here at least.

My very first job in the automotive industry was at a Cooper dealer. Like you I believed in (I say believed because it's been so many years gone by now) in Cooper tires, for the same reasons you stated, they are a great tire manufacture, in most aspects. If I had to find sometime to criticize the company about, it would lack of developing new economy priced tires. The owner was a stand up guy, I came on as a tire guy, but there was little room for me to move up so eventually I went on to work for Firestone. While I was at Firestone I learned every aspect of the store and worked every position except sales, though some of the rolls I took involved sales. And managed a store for a while. If I was going to suggest national tire chain for a tech to work for it would be Firestone, though they pay on flat rate, they are or were very fair to both customer and employee, however they could be quite a bit hard on their managers. Keep in mind I managed a store though the tire recall of 2000, which went on into the next year. So it was a tough time for the company, and I eventually moved on. Sometimes I wonder if I should have stuck with it. But that ship sailed. Later I'd work for Goodyear for a while which is honestly not a very good company to work for, at least not in their stores, and their tires really are not the best compared to F-stone or Cooper.

These days I'm running General's on all my rigs, General is a tire company that has really improved themselves in the last 20 or so years and while some of their tread patterns are not the most modern they sell quality tires at a little low price than the big boys.
 

AuroraGirl

Full Access Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2019
Posts
7,800
Reaction score
4,432
Location
Northern Wisconsin
First Name
Taylor
Truck Year
1978, 1980
Truck Model
K10, K25
Engine Size
400(?), 350
@AuroraGirl At least in Washington and I'm assuming this applies to most other states as I'm aware of a few national chains doing the labor matrix thing where like I was saying they will charge the customer a higher number of hours than the tech is getting paid, but perhaps they just take advantage where they can. Anyhow here at least it's not considered theft of wages as long as the tech makes at least minimum wage for the number of hours actually on the time clock for the week. Because as soon as someone signs up for a flat rate job nothing else is guaranteed. Unethical yes, illegal not here at least.

My very first job in the automotive industry was at a Cooper dealer. Like you I believed in (I say believed because it's been so many years gone by now) in Cooper tires, for the same reasons you stated, they are a great tire manufacture, in most aspects. If I had to find sometime to criticize the company about, it would lack of developing new economy priced tires. The owner was a stand up guy, I came on as a tire guy, but there was little room for me to move up so eventually I went on to work for Firestone. While I was at Firestone I learned every aspect of the store and worked every position except sales, though some of the rolls I took involved sales. And managed a store for a while. If I was going to suggest national tire chain for a tech to work for it would be Firestone, though they pay on flat rate, they are or were very fair to both customer and employee, however they could be quite a bit hard on their managers. Keep in mind I managed a store though the tire recall of 2000, which went on into the next year. So it was a tough time for the company, and I eventually moved on. Sometimes I wonder if I should have stuck with it. But that ship sailed. Later I'd work for Goodyear for a while which is honestly not a very good company to work for, at least not in their stores, and their tires really are not the best compared to F-stone or Cooper.

These days I'm running General's on all my rigs, General is a tire company that has really improved themselves in the last 20 or so years and while some of their tread patterns are not the most modern they sell quality tires at a little low price than the big boys.
So even tho I know a lot for my age and all that, something I cant get a square answer on is the hashed ring around the circumference of a tire that is by the bead. Its not tall, and its spacing makes me think its a visual aid to tell if the tire and wheel are mated "round" and not hung up or improperly or perhaps even a bent wheel if obvious enough. But I cant find any information trying to google with that. I can show you what i mean too

If Im way off, oh well, but if im on, wow I put that together with no outside information yay me. I only thought because its definitely not in uniform relation on my grandmas wheel on the back which also has heel toe wear and loses air slowly and Im guessing its improper install or pothole something maybe. Especially if it was lower pressure at the time. She hits a lot of deer when Im not with her so who knows what else >.>
You must be registered for see images attach
 

AuroraGirl

Full Access Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2019
Posts
7,800
Reaction score
4,432
Location
Northern Wisconsin
First Name
Taylor
Truck Year
1978, 1980
Truck Model
K10, K25
Engine Size
400(?), 350
@AuroraGirl At least in Washington and I'm assuming this applies to most other states as I'm aware of a few national chains doing the labor matrix thing where like I was saying they will charge the customer a higher number of hours than the tech is getting paid, but perhaps they just take advantage where they can. Anyhow here at least it's not considered theft of wages as long as the tech makes at least minimum wage for the number of hours actually on the time clock for the week. Because as soon as someone signs up for a flat rate job nothing else is guaranteed. Unethical yes, illegal not here at least.

My very first job in the automotive industry was at a Cooper dealer. Like you I believed in (I say believed because it's been so many years gone by now) in Cooper tires, for the same reasons you stated, they are a great tire manufacture, in most aspects. If I had to find sometime to criticize the company about, it would lack of developing new economy priced tires. The owner was a stand up guy, I came on as a tire guy, but there was little room for me to move up so eventually I went on to work for Firestone. While I was at Firestone I learned every aspect of the store and worked every position except sales, though some of the rolls I took involved sales. And managed a store for a while. If I was going to suggest national tire chain for a tech to work for it would be Firestone, though they pay on flat rate, they are or were very fair to both customer and employee, however they could be quite a bit hard on their managers. Keep in mind I managed a store though the tire recall of 2000, which went on into the next year. So it was a tough time for the company, and I eventually moved on. Sometimes I wonder if I should have stuck with it. But that ship sailed. Later I'd work for Goodyear for a while which is honestly not a very good company to work for, at least not in their stores, and their tires really are not the best compared to F-stone or Cooper.

These days I'm running General's on all my rigs, General is a tire company that has really improved themselves in the last 20 or so years and while some of their tread patterns are not the most modern they sell quality tires at a little low price than the big boys.
I remember hearing about the tire thing in a buick informational video LOL
To go to the dealers if you had them to get I want to say continental or general tires for free, maybe it was someoen else but I bet that was a mess
 

SirRobyn0

Full Access Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2019
Posts
3,368
Reaction score
3,556
Location
In the woods in Western Washington
First Name
Rob
Truck Year
1984
Truck Model
C20
Engine Size
350
I remember hearing about the tire thing in a buick informational video LOL
To go to the dealers if you had them to get I want to say continental or general tires for free, maybe it was someoen else but I bet that was a mess
I cannot give you a 100% correct answer on the tire ring thing you are talking about. As far as I know it's a visual aid to be able to see if the bead is beaded up evenly all the way around. That's what I've always used then for, an why other guys have used then for but it's not like I've ever been told that by a manufacture. Some of those ring on some tires are much larger and stick out more to protect the bead of the wheel.

Firestone handled the actual recall very professionally, it was what happened after the recall and the stores were dead. That's when the stuff hit the fan.
 

AuroraGirl

Full Access Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2019
Posts
7,800
Reaction score
4,432
Location
Northern Wisconsin
First Name
Taylor
Truck Year
1978, 1980
Truck Model
K10, K25
Engine Size
400(?), 350
You must be registered for see images attach

Ive been happy with my firestone experience. These rear 2 on my old LTD. Had to be used when they were put on shortly before I owned it but they were quiet and did well.
Then my spare in my park avenue. never used it. 2005 tire. holds air. 100% 10/10 A for Affort works for me lol
 

SirRobyn0

Full Access Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2019
Posts
3,368
Reaction score
3,556
Location
In the woods in Western Washington
First Name
Rob
Truck Year
1984
Truck Model
C20
Engine Size
350
I remember hearing about the tire thing in a buick informational video LOL
To go to the dealers if you had them to get I want to say continental or general tires for free, maybe it was someoen else but I bet that was a mess
Oh ya another thing I'd forgotten about the recall, Firestone obviously had to halt production of the AT and ATX tires that were being recalled, the number 1 & 2 tires they produced in that size. They could not keep up with production on Bridgestone dueler, plus that tire cost a lot more to build, so at my store we got regular shipments of Cooper discoverer AT's that's the original kind of blocky tread pattern, but not continentals or generals, of course that may have varied from location to location or regionally.
 

cstew47

Full Access Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2015
Posts
181
Reaction score
117
Location
colombia
First Name
craig
Truck Year
1978
Truck Model
K5
Engine Size
383
As for the fuel pump, I spent a few extra bucks and purchased a fuel pressure regulator with a third bypass line. I have my fuel pressure gauge right where the two lines separate to the front and rear fuel bowls (I am using a Holley 680) and the bypass line from the regulator goes to my bypass line back to tank (my truck is a 1985 originally carbureted and is equipped with a return to tank from factory.)

For the price of some extra line, a few more clamps, regulator and a quality pressure gauge, I can't stress enough how important this setup is particularly when setting up or diagnosing. A marked drop in pressure is a sure indication of a plugged fuel filter, which interestingly will be 95% of all the issues you will run into with a carbureted setup.

If the Chinesium parts have excess pressure, the regulator will take care of it until we can start buying parts made locally, the way it should have stayed.
I hope every last manufacturer CEO who moved their factories offshore all die in vehicle accidents caused by inferior parts from their own company.
Yeah, same here. The pump on my 383 stroker was putting out 8psi to my Eddy 1405. My fuel economy is horrendous (5 mpg in city), so I stuck a regulator on it today. I'm hoping to see some positive results. I think that a regulator is cheap insurance.
 

SirRobyn0

Full Access Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2019
Posts
3,368
Reaction score
3,556
Location
In the woods in Western Washington
First Name
Rob
Truck Year
1984
Truck Model
C20
Engine Size
350
Yeah, same here. The pump on my 383 stroker was putting out 8psi to my Eddy 1405. My fuel economy is horrendous (5 mpg in city), so I stuck a regulator on it today. I'm hoping to see some positive results. I think that a regulator is cheap insurance.
I'm not going to reread the thread to see if this has been said before, so I apologize if this is duplicate. Fuel pressure regulators are great especially like in your case, but one thing that we are seeing at the shop is that sometimes just adding a regulator isn't enough. For example maybe you'd take that 8PSI and regulate it down to 4, engine now runs good, but after a hot shut down the heat from the engine is enough to expand the fuel in the lines and push it though the regulator and past the needle and seat so next time you go to start it it's flooded.

I've heard that regulators with return lines like what grumpy is running are quite effective at eliminating this issue, though I've not personally installed one. On a vehicle that has a pump return line and two tanks I'm not sure how that is plumbed if it can just be tee'd into the return line or not.

So in the end at the shop we have finally broken down and now use the Edelbrock or Holley pump which is regulated properly. I think that's just terrible though that we can't get a new pump over the counter that produces proper pressure, I mistakenly though that producing proper fuel pressure would be important to pump manufactures but apparently not any more.
 

squarelyfe

Full Access Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2021
Posts
174
Reaction score
101
Location
NORCAL USA
First Name
Larry
Truck Year
1975
Truck Model
k25
Engine Size
350
Yeah, same here. The pump on my 383 stroker was putting out 8psi to my Eddy 1405. My fuel economy is horrendous (5 mpg in city), so I stuck a regulator on it today. I'm hoping to see some positive results. I think that a regulator is cheap insurance.i
Yeah, same here. The pump on my 383 stroker was putting out 8psi to my Eddy 1405. My fuel economy is horrendous (5 mpg in city), so I stuck a regulator on it today. I'm hoping to see some positive results. I think that a regulator is cheap insurance.
I don't think putting a regulator on is going to help you with MPG'S. It will regulate the overage of psi that can blow the needle/seat allowing for the flooding. If you are on the line and seem like you flood with a regulator I'd be looking at the float level. MPG's will come from tuning the air fuel mixtures, a clean air filter, good clean spark and timing also tire psi
 
Last edited:

cstew47

Full Access Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2015
Posts
181
Reaction score
117
Location
colombia
First Name
craig
Truck Year
1978
Truck Model
K5
Engine Size
383
Well, if you google "symptoms of too much fuel pressure", one of the things that is cited is poor fuel economy. I will keep the group posted as I run this tank down.
 

cstew47

Full Access Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2015
Posts
181
Reaction score
117
Location
colombia
First Name
craig
Truck Year
1978
Truck Model
K5
Engine Size
383
I'm not going to reread the thread to see if this has been said before, so I apologize if this is duplicate. Fuel pressure regulators are great especially like in your case, but one thing that we are seeing at the shop is that sometimes just adding a regulator isn't enough. For example maybe you'd take that 8PSI and regulate it down to 4, engine now runs good, but after a hot shut down the heat from the engine is enough to expand the fuel in the lines and push it though the regulator and past the needle and seat so next time you go to start it it's flooded.

I've heard that regulators with return lines like what grumpy is running are quite effective at eliminating this issue, though I've not personally installed one. On a vehicle that has a pump return line and two tanks I'm not sure how that is plumbed if it can just be tee'd into the return line or not.

So in the end at the shop we have finally broken down and now use the Edelbrock or Holley pump which is regulated properly. I think that's just terrible though that we can't get a new pump over the counter that produces proper pressure, I mistakenly though that producing proper fuel pressure would be important to pump manufactures but apparently not any more.
Good feedback. I am at 5,000 ft. elevation in a temperate climate, so, hopefully that will mitigate some of those problems.
 

SirRobyn0

Full Access Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2019
Posts
3,368
Reaction score
3,556
Location
In the woods in Western Washington
First Name
Rob
Truck Year
1984
Truck Model
C20
Engine Size
350
Well, if you google "symptoms of too much fuel pressure", one of the things that is cited is poor fuel economy. I will keep the group posted as I run this tank down.
My take on that is if there is enough excessive fuel pressure to cause runability symptoms or starting issues, then it's like any other rich running situation and if bad enough will effect fuel economy.
 

Bextreme04

Full Access Member
Joined
May 13, 2019
Posts
3,091
Reaction score
3,066
Location
Oregon
First Name
Eric
Truck Year
1980
Truck Model
K25
Engine Size
350-4bbl
Every single SBC mechanical fuel pump I have found ends up being a 7-9psi pump. Even if they say somewhere that it is a max 6psi pump... when you get down into the weeds of the specs they are 7-9psi. With that being said, they work fine on a stock quadrajet without pushing fuel past the needle. I bought a Carter one that was supposed to be lower pressure and it ended up failing at about 500 miles on a brand new engine. The pump arm snapped off where it goes into the pump itself. I just went to Autozone and got a new Delphi unit from them and it works much better and hasn't failed yet. I had the same Delphi pump on the old engine for two years before the motor blew up and just decided to put a new one on the new motor instead of reusing the still working one.
 

SirRobyn0

Full Access Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2019
Posts
3,368
Reaction score
3,556
Location
In the woods in Western Washington
First Name
Rob
Truck Year
1984
Truck Model
C20
Engine Size
350
Every single SBC mechanical fuel pump I have found ends up being a 7-9psi pump. Even if they say somewhere that it is a max 6psi pump... when you get down into the weeds of the specs they are 7-9psi. With that being said, they work fine on a stock quadrajet without pushing fuel past the needle. I bought a Carter one that was supposed to be lower pressure and it ended up failing at about 500 miles on a brand new engine. The pump arm snapped off where it goes into the pump itself. I just went to Autozone and got a new Delphi unit from them and it works much better and hasn't failed yet. I had the same Delphi pump on the old engine for two years before the motor blew up and just decided to put a new one on the new motor instead of reusing the still working one.
I remember that. To bad, carter use to be such a good manufacture to. I'd kind of like to go back to a Q-jet and have a couple laying around I could rebuild and stick on but the PO removed all the factory linkage brackets, so they are gone and I have the 700R4, currently setup properly for the Eddie and it works good enough. I guess at this point there is just other more important stuff on my list, but I really like the Q-jet myself.
 

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
36,195
Posts
764,800
Members
25,352
Latest member
El82Blazer
Top