To buy or not to buy, for daily usage.

[Grit dog]

In order to validate vehicles for FMVSS105 and 208 (so that we could sell them to the public) we had to run tests in both 2wd and 4wd.

There was no measureable difference in terms of stopping distance.

K

On snow? I believe you in general, but real world, not trained test drivers, on snow/ice having both axles locked together makes it easier to not lock up the wheels in low traction situations. I’d say the same applies now as well to the newer technology ABs/traction/stability control.
It’s not earth shattering and so many other factors involved but same vehicle, same everything 2wd or 4wd I’ll take the 4x for a panic stop.
I might be convinced differently if I hadn’t driven hundreds of different vehicles in 1000s of different snow/ice/loads, empty, towing at all temperatures from above freezing to -50.

 

[Keith Seymore]

On low mu test surfaces ("gennite" and basalt tiles).

We did all the early ABS development at the Desert Proving Ground in Mesa in the late 80s/early 90s.

I was just remembering we had a hard time getting our work done because the Marketing folks always had the surface in use for photo shoots for advertising.

K

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[Terlingueno]

The way I was taught to drive in snow/ice was not to try and go too fast. As in driving to the existing conditions, and if icy, chain up. I observed over the years that people try drive too fast and the "well I've got 4 wheel drive" gives people over confidence in their ability to stop/go/steer in conditions of snow/ice and even heavy rain. Having to actually learn to steer into the skid and stay off the brakes when traction is lost is something I learned way, way back when I was learning to drive. The other thing I was taught was driving slower in severe conditions. Another option that was impressed upon me was if it is really, really bad. Don't drive. Wait until conditions improve. That has served me well my entire driving life. Do they (parents/drivers ed) even teach these things anymore?

 

[Keith Seymore]

On low mu test surfaces ("gennite" and basalt tiles).

We did all the early ABS development at the Desert Proving Ground in Mesa in the late 80s/early 90s.
I was just remembering we had a hard time getting our work done because the Marketing folks always had the surface in use for photo shoots for advertising.

Found an example:

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[Grit dog]

On low mu test surfaces ("gennite" and basalt tiles).

We did all the early ABS development at the Desert Proving Ground in Mesa in the late 80s/early 90s.

I was just remembering we had a hard time getting our work done because the Marketing folks always had the surface in use for photo shoots for advertising.

K

You must be registered for see images attach

You must be registered for see images attach

When you said there was no measurable difference between 2wd and 4wd are you referring to 4 wheel abs and stopping only, not accelerating?
Anyone who says 2wd is = to 4wd on ice n snow is either playing internet expert or lying.
Simple experiment. You got a foot of fresh snow wet snow on top of a sheet of ice and you have the keys to my blue K20 and your red C10 (with the same tires hypothetically) hanging next to each other and gotta get to the beer store or take granny to the hospital or drive to Wyoming from Michigan or anything else in between, you’re telling me you’d grab the keys to the C10 and get after it?
Like that dude on FB says…Nooo Waaayyyy…

 

[Grit dog]

The way I was taught to drive in snow/ice was not to try and go too fast. As in driving to the existing conditions, and if icy, chain up. I observed over the years that people try drive too fast and the "well I've got 4 wheel drive" gives people over confidence in their ability to stop/go/steer in conditions of snow/ice and even heavy rain. Having to actually learn to steer into the skid and stay off the brakes when traction is lost is something I learned way, way back when I was learning to drive. The other thing I was taught was driving slower in severe conditions. Another option that was impressed upon me was if it is really, really bad. Don't drive. Wait until conditions improve. That has served me well my entire driving life. Do they (parents/drivers ed) even teach these things anymore?

Probably not in Terlinguino, Texas…..
Come to think of it they didn’t teach us to drive in the snow in drivers ed in Chicago in 1988 either. Maybe covered it in the book or a slide show idk…..But I didn’t spend a lot of time listening to the teacher in drivers ed. It was kinda like taking 4th grade math over again as a sophomore in high school.
I do remember that they would cancel drivers ed road sessions if it snowed.
But I was the kid that got yelled at for plowing a couple lanes into the hi shcool parking lot once. I had been plowing all night and got done and got to school about 6am to nap in the parking lot for a bit before school. Guess I wasn’t allowed to help….plows hadn’t come thru yet and I plowed the admin/faculty spots real quick. Figured it would earn me some brownie points when my bitch of a calculus teacher didn’t have to get her feet wet getting out of her car!

 

[Keith Seymore]

When you said there was no measurable difference between 2wd and 4wd are you referring to 4 wheel abs and stopping only, not accelerating?
Anyone who says 2wd is = to 4wd on ice n snow is either playing internet expert or lying.
Simple experiment. You got a foot of fresh snow wet snow on top of a sheet of ice and you have the keys to my blue K20 and your red C10 (with the same tires hypothetically) hanging next to each other and gotta get to the beer store or take granny to the hospital or drive to Wyoming from Michigan or anything else in between, you’re telling me you’d grab the keys to the C10 and get after it?
Like that dude on FB says…Nooo Waaayyyy…

Correct. The discussion was relative to stopping.

K

 

[Keith Seymore]

Can we please stop the old wives tail that 4wd does not stop better than 2wd? My dad used to say that when I was a kid. Wasn’t true then and still ain’t. Pretty sure he just wished he had a 4x4.
ESPECIALLY for old vehicles without ABS. ABS levels the playing field quite a bit, newer ABS, not the old original versions from the 80s-90s.

Yes, your tires only get so much traction for whatever weight and pressure. But when in 4wd and you have to lock up all 4 before losing controlled braking, that will win every time compared to a 1 or 2 wheeler peeler locking up quicker and less predictably. Period.
If one doesn’t believe this it’s because one either hasn’t experienced both or one is making excuses why “4wd isn’t better.”

In response to this.

K

 

[Ricko1966]

Probably not in Terlinguino, Texas…..
Come to think of it they didn’t teach us to drive in the snow in drivers ed in Chicago in 1988 either. Maybe covered it in the book or a slide show idk…..But I didn’t spend a lot of time listening to the teacher in drivers ed. It was kinda like taking 4th grade math over again as a sophomore in high school.
I do remember that they would cancel drivers ed road sessions if it snowed.
But I was the kid that got yelled at for plowing a couple lanes into the hi shcool parking lot once. I had been plowing all night and got done and got to school about 6am to nap in the parking lot for a bit before school. Guess I wasn’t allowed to help….plows hadn’t come thru yet and I plowed the admin/faculty spots real quick. Figured it would earn me some brownie points when my bitch of a calculus teacher didn’t have to get her feet wet getting out of her car!

In Kansas they wouldn't let is drive in drivers ED either when the weather was bad. Also in Kansas you could and believe you still can get your drivers license at 14. I bought my first car at 13. Had been driving 2 years before I took drivers Ed. I only took it because it was a blow off class and an insurance discount. Get to drivers Ed one day,was a day I would get to drive. Was told we are not driving today. Why not? Would you want someone driving your car in this weather? Sure,I'll go get it. We have to learn to drive in this we can practice in the football parking lot. The instructor did not see it my way.

 

[bucket]

Can we please stop the old wives tail that 4wd does not stop better than 2wd? My dad used to say that when I was a kid. Wasn’t true then and still ain’t. Pretty sure he just wished he had a 4x4.
ESPECIALLY for old vehicles without ABS. ABS levels the playing field quite a bit, newer ABS, not the old original versions from the 80s-90s.

Yes, your tires only get so much traction for whatever weight and pressure. But when in 4wd and you have to lock up all 4 before losing controlled braking, that will win every time compared to a 1 or 2 wheeler peeler locking up quicker and less predictably. Period.
If one doesn’t believe this it’s because one either hasn’t experienced both or one is making excuses why “4wd isn’t better.”

I agree with this, mostly because the typical old 4x4 has much more aggressive tires than the typical older 2wd.

 

[Dejure]

I would add, I live in WArshington. I've lived on the coast and inland. Never owned anything with AWD or 4 wheel drive until a few years back. Literally drove over the mountain passes hundreds of times. Many times in summer tires, because I couldn't afford sawdust tires or studs and the cost of swaps. In all those decades, I could count the times I got stuck on one hand. I did lose it once or twice.

Common sense goes a long ways:

- If it snowed over a foot last night, I re-think how much running around I'll do.

- I slow way the hell down. Even on what appears to be dry roads (black ice can be educational, the hard way).

- 4 wheel drive means 4 wheel compression, so a high potential for even more loss of control than a 2 wheel drive rig, and it doesn't have any more tires and brakes than any other car or truck.

- Snow tires can be a good investment. I've grown fond of studless, and I invested in extra rims, a good jack and impact to make swaps easy.

- Braking too fast, or even turning too fast is lesson building. Again, the hard way.

- If you have a stick, give it gas when downshifting, or you'll lock up the rear end.

- ALWAYS have safety gear. Safety gear includes warm cloths, footwear and gloves. Chains are good. Tools are good (e.g., you can lower your headlights and it will reduce the glare you, otherwise, suffer in a blinding snowstorm - the lights cut down through the snow and fog, rather than straight in [and blasting it back at you].

- If you have limited slip, a couple clicks on the emergency brake can lock the tires up enough to get you out of a tight spot.

- Sometimes, even many times, gassing it can keep you out of a situation, but it is way important to know when.

- Muscle memory is a priority, when it comes to driving snowy, compact ice and snow, and black ice. There isn't time to think.

- Sometimes, having your passenger side tires on the shoulder can keep you from joining all those four-wheelers, AWDs and others in the fast/passing lane ditch (or worse). Crunchy ice and snow can mean traction those to the left can only dream about, as they test their rigs in the meridians and. . . .

- AWDs have unique limits: Many cannot tolerate chains (they eat the mechanical parts behind the tires), even as DOT "experts" require them to carry chains they cannot use to travel passes.

. . . .

Oh, and then there was the year all I had was my motorbike. That was a fun drive to and from work each day (about 2 miles away).

By the way, heavy cotton cord will give you traction on your go tire, for about 150 feet.

 

[Grit dog]

I agree with this, mostly because the typical old 4x4 has much more aggressive tires than the typical older 2wd.

I’d say it’s the case even if the 2wd has better tires. Can we all just think about it logically? If rwd or even fwd vehicles got as good of traction in snow, 2wd trucks wouldn’t be almost gone the way of the dinosaur and there wouldn’t be every flavor of little suv and mommy missle all in AWD flavor.