Hard Start - SOLVED

[Doppleganger]

I had it re-shimmed at a shop because I didn't think I was getting it right either - but still doesn't mean thats not it, or at least part of it either. That was where they told me of the 22 degree thing. My question on it all is though, why does it only do this once - then will start normal (like instantly) the rest of the day? I made this vid at 10am. Ran for about 10 min, then started it again at 9:30p that night and it started fine. Could it be something with a residual fuel in the cylinders that helps with ignition if the timing is off? Then there's that hesitation-stumble under acceleration - and not a hole shot - just normal like from a stop light. At times when it stumbles, it will almost sound like it wants to backfire if I didin't ease into it too.

There's alot of issues here probably - most every vac line was pulled as well - including the vac advance. One of my best friends was a 40 yr tech - we had plans to tear into this this Spring, but he passed unexpectedly last Fall. He had told me to ditch the chrome air cleaner and reinstall the original as it had ports for some of the vacuum lines. (fortunatley most of the original parts were in a box in the bed when the truck arrived). I watched a video last night 'what happens when you're too far advanced' and it sounded very similar too. Dunno.

Its been 25yrs since my last SBC so I'm rusty on it all.....if there was someone who (for sure) knew these things locally, I'd be there. Most of these shops today are clueless if there's no OBD port to tell them what part to replace.

Thanks again fellas for all the input!

 

[bad neighbor]

Is your timing way too advanced ??

I think you need to listen to Shorty and verify timing. Too much advance can really make an engine drag on start up. And yes, sometimes it will start fine, but most of the time it will sound like yours.

 

[Matt69olds]

Start by checking ALL the cables, make sure the cables are good inside the insulation. Hopefully there are the correct gauge, and not cheap auto parts store replacements. Make sure the starter is shimmed correctly. Lastly, all this assumes the battery is good, and the charging system is working correctly.

Unplug the battery connection to the distributor, if the engine cranks normally, you definitely have a timing issue. If the distributor is installed a tooth off, you either need to remove it and install it correctly,, or reposition the plug wires on the cap. If you can’t back off the timing far enough to get it to start easily, then repositioning the wires is probably easier. While the cap is off, make sure all the advance weights move freely and return smoothly. Hope that helps!

 

[Doppleganger]

Thanks much guys - will get on this the end of the week. Wish I was more up to par on these.....can do some of the 4-N shtuff in my sleep....need to get up to speed on the SBC.

All the battery cables and grounds are new - originals were shot. New battery too - alt puts out 13.8v at idle. I'd like to pull the distributor and start over. The PO's son swapped it and when I look at (literally) everything else he touched, I have little doubt something is off there.

 

[1983GMC]

Man! That's brutal to watch and listen too! While I can't help with the start issue I can make a suggestion as far as the stumble, stutter and fall on her face issue. My 83 had a very similar issue and judging from all the or crap still on your it's a post 81 square body. Mine ended up being the ESCM (electronic spark control module- basically it's a knock sensor and controller) I only figured it out because it finally failed and left my 17yr old stranded while I was out of state. This can be a massive issue to tshoot cause when it starts to go it almost presents like a fuel issue. Started good, ran amazing at idle, and never failed when revved, only struggled under a heavy foot.1/4 throttle or less no problems.

2 solutions, one bypass the ESCM or you can buy a new one. They range from $100 - $200. To bypass you'll unhook the four prong wire coming off the back of the distributor that comes from your pick-up coil and place a jumper wire between connection A and C (it's marked on the plug) or if you really want to get rid of it pull the whole ESCM out to include the wires and either put the jumper wire inside the cap connected to the green wire and the one without a wire coming off of it on the pick-up coil or buy a pre 81 HEI distributor set up. *this will not effect emissions if that's a concern* you will however have to know what knock sounds like and listen for it when your driving.

Check out this link for details -
http://www.73-87.com/7387garage/drivetrain/escrepl.htm

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[Doppleganger]

Today I finally got to get into it some......pulled the power plug on the distributor and it turned over strong and smooth like it never has before.

Does that confirm its an ignition timing issue?

 

[Matt69olds]

If the engine spins fast with the ignition unplugged you definitely have a timing issue.

 

[roundhouse]

It’s sounded like the timing was too advanced

I would try retarding the timing for sure



If it runs it can’t be too far out
But one of the best things I ever did was take an old cap and cut windows in it with a dremel so I could actually see where the rotor was pointing to the number one contact on the cap

The timing may not be advancing at all when it’s running

If it’s that advanced as it sounds in the vid
It should ping when you go up a hill

I’ve always set the timing by vacuum gauge or by ear

By ear , with an automatic you chock the wheels good , and stand on the brake , put it in drive and give it more and more throttle

Do this in a driveway or safe place so if the brakes don’t hold you won’t run over something or someone important
And dont keep the throttle on long
Just ease into it and about half or 3/4 throttle you’ll hear it start pinging

If you keep the throttle on long it will quickly overheat the transmission

Shut it off and advance the timing about two degrees
Then Repeat
Once you get to where it starts knocking or pinging when you give it some good throttle , that’s your limit
, mark the location on the dizzy and intake with some fingernail polish and then back it off 2 or 3 degrees and it should be happy

With vacuum you just hook up a vac gauge and set it till you have the highest vacuum

And some of the battery and starter cables were not making a good connection

They might be new cables
Pull them and make sure where they touch down to the body and frame and engine is clean and shiny

And make sure they is a cable from the battery to the engine block
And another from the block to the frame

And a couple small ones from the frame to the body and a couple small ones from they engine to the body

Most of them get removed over the years

 

[Doppleganger]

It should ping when you go up a hill

And some of the battery and starter cables were not making a good connection

It pings indeed! Almost acts like it wants to backfire at times. The battery tray, inner fender and cables were shot from leaky batteries, etc. I replace it all with new (Interstate battery as well - had one so small it looked like a lawn mower battery in it) and the guy who put the starter in said the wiring there was good - I was under it yesterday (to change the plugs....they -might- have been original with 100k, .020 variance in gaps, etc - no joke) and that part all looks really good.

Nice day today - going to see what else I can do. Dont have an old cap - but that sounds like a dandy idea. Surprised someone doesn't cut holes in old ones and sell them at a premium....they do it with jeans!

The USPS Santa is bringing me a TDC tool today. Its really close to TDC at the moment but at first glance, distributor looked to be too far clockwise by about an inch.

UPDATE: I started it after only changing the plugs and its hard over again.....but did start. Difference now is that ANY throttling (which I did when it first started before) and it will rattle and almost stall.

Going to set timing and see what that does next. I think CCW advances it and its already too far clockwise - no doubt this whole thing is off in the hole. Gonna start over.

 

[Preston]

Good luck sounds like you are on the right track

 

[Doppleganger]

WELL....I got TDC found and the distributor was off but not too bad. I -think- the guy at the shop that adjusted it may have gone the wrong way (easy to be confused with CW vs CCW). I have it where it runs pretty good but its still the groaning hard start. Timing is currently around 11-12 advanced.

I really wanted to make it turn key reliable while I collect and have rebuilt an LS or Vortec motor....might make it sit now until thats ready. Dunno at this point.

 

[Doppleganger]

Seeing as it runs good but still starts hard - been thinking about what some of you fellas also mentioned, so for shts and giggles I took the battery out (less than year old Interstate) to have it checked under load.....and guess what? It failed. 1-2 bad cells. Maybe that was it? Dunno. Will find out soon enough when I get a new one.

Thats the second new Interstate battery I've lost (2 different vehicles) in the last year. They making those is sweatshops now too? These things used to be $39 and lasted 7-10 yrs. Now, they're $100-120 and you're lucky to get 3.

I'm going to make a new app for the smart phones: an "E-punchintheface" and send it to all the CEOs of these companies.

 

[KilgoreTrout]

That's even gonna push ME off if it's your battery. Lol...

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[78C10BigTen]

Seeing as it runs good but still starts hard - been thinking about what some of you fellas also mentioned, so for shts and giggles I took the battery out (less than year old Interstate) to have it checked under load.....and guess what? It failed. 1-2 bad cells. Maybe that was it? Dunno. Will find out soon enough when I get a new one.

Thats the second new Interstate battery I've lost (2 different vehicles) in the last year. They making those is sweatshops now too? These things used to be $39 and lasted 7-10 yrs. Now, they're $100-120 and you're lucky to get 3.

I'm going to make a new app for the smart phones: an "E-punchintheface" and send it to all the CEOs of these companies.

Ive had new interstates and they were complete ****! I bought this napa legend about 6 years ago and it has and still does start my ol 350 on the second crank reliably every time. It was a lil expensive but WELL worth it! I wouldnt hesitate to buy another one.

 

[KilgoreTrout]

Ive had new interstates and they were complete ****! I bought this napa legend about 6 years ago and it has and still does start my ol 350 on the second crank reliably every time. It was a lil expensive but WELL worth it! I wouldnt hesitate to buy another one.

I had a diehard weather handler in my 97 Cherokee that lasted like 11yrs?
Craziest **** ever.
It came with the jeep when I bought it at auction in 2005. The thing even sat for a year while I had it. I started it once around the 6 month mark and it fired right up. Then again 6 months later.
I don't know wtf that battery was made of, but I want another one.
I sold it with the same battery 100k+ miles later.
Completely insane.

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