Caster settings 1977 C10

[Steppin Razor]

Hi all. Does anyone know the caster specs for a 77 C10? I replaced my upper control arms and I'm trying to get a baseline setting. I did my tie rods previously and two alignment shops told me they won't do the caster/camber for less than $150 and that they'd have to order shims. I had one do the toe and give me the numbers for caster as it sat, then did the upper control arms. I found a video that suggested a 1/8" was just a touch less than a degree, but I don't know what the starting caster is with no shims and what number I'm looking for. I had negative caster according to the alignment shop, so I know I needed to change what was in there. The video was for a car, maybe camaro (hard to tell because the video was shot too close) so I don't know if my baseline is the same as his (which appeared to be 7degrees positive).

So anyone know the numbers baseline (no shims) and what the specs are? TIA

 

[TotalyHucked]

I don't know what the spec is but I've always just dialed in (or told the shop to do it) as much positive caster as you can get. Done that on every car I've ever lined or paid to be lined. It drives much better that way, is more stable and the wheel returns to center better.

 

[Ricko1966]

You are supposed to check frame angle and then use a chart that I don't have. I'd go with 3 degrees positive caster, 1/4-1/2 degree negative camber and an 1/8th inch of toe. Yea measuring toe in inches is kinda crude,because the actual degrees change with tire diameter,but as long as you have a little bit of toe you'll be fine. If you have a drift towards the right subtract 1/2 degree of caster on the left

 

[fast 99]

When replacing front end parts I just put whatever shims were there back in. Was usually close enough to drive to an alignment shop.

Factory tolerances were all over the place. Have seen vehicles with no shims and others with 3/8" plus.

Really need to find a shop that specializes in alignments. $150 seems a little high but not over the top. Here alignments are around $100.

Most cars today do not use shims. Likely the tech doing the work has never seen a shimmed front end or doesn't want to do it. They can be more time consuming. Numbers above are a good baseline setting.

 

[Ricko1966]

You need to do a caster sweep. To do a caster sweep you will need to buy/make a caster camber gauge. Wheel straight ahead turn the wheel 20 degrees right read camber,turn the wheels 20 degrees left read camber again,subtract to find the difference,multiply x 1.5 that's your caster number. You'll have to repeat the process on the other wheel. Remember when changing camber you move shims equally front and rear,to change caster you only change front or rear shim,depending on what you need. Set caster,then camber,then toe.

 

[Ricko1966]

I found you a video,seeing it done you'll understand it.better than my explanation.

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I don't use the wheel hub I use a piece of angle across the wheel from 12 o'clock position to 6 o'clock position.

 

[Ricko1966]

When replacing front end parts I just put whatever shims were there back in. Was usually close enough to drive to an alignment shop.

Factory tolerances were all over the place. Have seen vehicles with no shims and others with 3/8" plus.

Really need to find a shop that specializes in alignments. $150 seems a little high but not over the top. Here alignments are around $100.

Most cars today do not use shims. Likely the tech doing the work has never seen a shimmed front end or doesn't want to do it. They can be more time consuming. Numbers above are a good baseline setting.

I wouldn't do a car that needed shims that the owner did all his own work then brought it in,no where close to where it should be. For less than $150.00,the reason for this post is not to be confrontational,just trying to save the guy money. If you level the truck first,learn how to measure your angles and do a good job checking and measuring,there is no need to take it for an alignment,as long as you are happy with how it drives. Those angles^^^^ will not wear tires. The argument that a shop will do it better,probably not,most times they will get it close,if it's in the green which is actually a pretty generous spread,then it's good in their eyes. A standard alignment is get everything in spec(green),not tweak and tailor everything to be ideal. The guy aligning it doesn't get paid more if he takes longer,and you aren't going to look at an alignment sheet and say,wow you did a really good job and slip the tech an extra $10.00. So in the green with the least work,is the standard.

 

[TotalyHucked]

Agreed with all of that ^. I'd done string alignments many times and been fine, actually did it and then took it to a shop just out of curiosity and they didn't even charge me cuz it was perfect as soon as they racked it. My dad has slider plates from back in the day, that with some jack stands, string and a good ruler and tape measure will get you in the green every time.

 

[fast 99]

I have done alignments for about 10 years. Isn't my primary job. Do them when the regular alignment tech has a day off or whatever. Yes I agree being in the green alone won't be a decent alignment. I instruct or remind the alignment techs many times on that. If I am near the area will oversee the settings before the heads are removed.

A large caster split alone will make it drive like crap. Without snap gauges caster can't be accurately measured in a home shop. Last I knew they weren't cheap. Today's alignment machines are very precise but still relies on the tech doing a good job.

 

[idahovette]

I wouldn't do a car that needed shims that the owner did all his own work then brought it in,no where close to where it should be. For less than $150.00,the reason for this post is not to be confrontational,just trying to save the guy money. If you level the truck first,learn how to measure your angles and do a good job checking and measuring,there is no need to take it for an alignment,as long as you are happy with how it drives. Those angles^^^^ will not wear tires. The argument that a shop will do it better,probably not,most times they will get it close,if it's in the green which is actually a pretty generous spread,then it's good in their eyes. A standard alignment is get everything in spec(green),not tweak and tailor everything to be ideal. The guy aligning it doesn't get paid more if he takes longer,and you aren't going to look at an alignment sheet and say,wow you did a really good job and slip the tech an extra $10.00. So in the green with the least work,is the standard.

Wow you 2 are very cynical guys. There are some of us that try to get the angle in the proper perspective with what we have to work with. I still have several containers of assorted shims for passenger cars, 1/2 tons and 3/4 tons, along with the spindle /knuckle shims for the 4 wheel drives. I will take whatever time necessary to get the angles correct.......but I am old school. Also I am retired and work on what I WANT to work on, so there's that BUT in the "GREEN" ain't good enough for me!

 

[TotalyHucked]

I have done alignments for about 10 years. Isn't my primary job. Do them when the regular alignment tech has a day off or whatever. Yes I agree being in the green alone won't be a decent alignment. I instruct or remind the alignment techs many times on that. If I am near the area will oversee the settings before the heads are removed.

A large caster split alone will make it drive like crap. Without snap gauges caster can't be accurately measured in a home shop. Last I knew they weren't cheap. Today's alignment machines are very precise but still relies on the tech doing a good job.

This why I'll still take it to a shop after I've done it sometimes. Depending on how it drives and/or how much I spent on the tires lol

 

[Steppin Razor]

While they didn't come out and say it, I got the impression that neither shop wanted to do it and would charge me a lot if I made them.

The second place, that did the toe (for $70), gave me the numbers it was at (not good, like -1.1 / -.4 caster) which explains why over 50 on the highway is a challenge. That's why I didn't put back what I had. It appears whoever did it before got it backwards and stacked the front instead of the back of the control arm. My thought was get it positive, then take it back and have them show me what the number was, then either see what they charge or DIY it. I don't have garage space at the moment or a driveway to do it properly, so it might have to wait a bit. So if I can ballpark it by the shim count, then I can drive it and look for a more willing alignment shop to double check my settings and possibly alter.

I currently put two 1/8" shims at the back for caster. This video suggests that's about 2 degrees, and that it starts out positive with none. Not the same vehicle, but a GM of the right era, so hopefully while the actual baseline may be different, it will still be positive.

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I added a 3rd shim front and back for camber. The truck was lowered by the PO 2.5" so this is not enough, I will have to add more once I get caster done.

I know that I need more shims for positive caster. The recentering effect is too slight. Can shims be added with the truck on the ground? Just loosen the nuts holding the control arm and slip more in? Or do I have to jack it up and take the wheel off? Thanks

 

[Ricko1966]

Wow you 2 are very cynical guys. There are some of us that try to get the angle in the proper perspective with what we have to work with. I still have several containers of assorted shims for passenger cars, 1/2 tons and 3/4 tons, along with the spindle /knuckle shims for the 4 wheel drives. I will take whatever time necessary to get the angles correct.......but I am old school. Also I am retired and work on what I WANT to work on, so there's that BUT in the "GREEN" ain't good enough for me!

Doing alignments at Firestone will ruin you ever wanting to do alignments. Mom and Pop shops I do better alignments, Firestone,it's in the green ,done. Alignments were a big waste of time and kept me from doing the work that actually paid. Maybe it was the combination of the neighborhood,and Firestones pay structure for alignments,but there was no money to be made on alignments. At the 2 mom and pop shops That I did most of the alignments at,I made more,the customers bought more and I did a much better job.

 

[TotalyHucked]

That seems to be the consensus of shops in general, not just about alignments. Guys working at smaller shops tend to do a better job cuz they make more and have better customers

 

[bluex]

Yep big chain shops are only for modern toe an go daily drivers.

Custom stuff needs a good small independent shop. I usually set lowered stuff to these specs, if you can locate a shop that will do it. This has worked good for me on trucks from the 60s through 98.

Caster +5.0 or as close as possible. Match the side that maxes out first if it can't get to 5. They should be the same on both sides.

Camber -.5 to -.75. It won't wear the tires till you get over -1 an it helps with fender clearance.

Toe 1/16" in