Runs better with vac advance unhooked (Help)

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350runner

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vac advance is to only provide an extra amount of timing during the cruise mode... back down your initial bud. Bud you'll see more mechanical: centrifugal makes more sense as you don't see the initial very long as your constantly driving on mechanical.

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rich weyand

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Yeah, I know. You've said this before and I still think you're wrong.

Base timing is where your hole shot is, as well as cruising around town in 3rd. And with 20* mechanical advance, it gets me to the 36* I want in the upper register with the throttle open.

Most of the time driving around town, I'm in the 1500-2000 rpm range, and running on base timing.

I'll stick with what I got, thanks. Been doing it that way for 45 years, another couple decades won't hurt.
 

350runner

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Base timing is out of play soon as mechanical kicks in... where that starts (1300 +)is dependant on the springs one will use... I'm glad you feel you have it right after 45 years but fact is fact and that isn't it.It's like telling people all GM trucks came with the same amout of vac and mechanical advance. It isn't true. Good luck

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rich weyand

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I'll rely on my sources, thanks, and we'll have to agree to disagree.
 

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At it's most basic, vacuum advance has nothing to do with engine performance.

It was designed to increase fuel economy and driveability, particularly at lean mixtures. It also increases engine life through more complete combustion. This results in less unburned fuel to wash away the cylinder wall lubrication (piston ring wear), and less lubricating oil dilution.

Vacuum advance plays no part in ignition timing during periods of low manifold vacuum and high engine RPM.

For example, at wide open throttle (WOT): under that condition, only a very reduced vacuum exists in the intake manifold and engine speed is high and rising.

This causes the vacuum advance diaphram/linkage to return to it's base position and control of ignition timing is taken over by the mechanical advance assembly.

This switch from vacuum to mechanical control is not an on/off transition, it is gradual and happens as the manifold vacuum drops and the speed of the distributor shaft increases. It is important to understand that whichever system is in position to advance ignition timing to the greatest degree - that is the one that takes control.

So as the throttle opens and the engine is taken off idle:

1. First, manifold pressure rises. Vacuum is decreased within the operating chamber. This allows the linkage (that connects the vacuum advance diaphram to the mounting plate) to gradually return to it's base position. As the mounting plate indexes CW with respect to the distributor shaft, timing begins to retard.

2. But, while vacuum is dropping, the engine speed is increasing. This increase in speed is transferred (via the cam shaft and distibutor shaft) to the mechanical advance mechanism. Due to centrifugal force, the flyweights - which actuate the mechanical advance - overcome spring tension and begin to move outward. Like the vacuum advance linkage, the fly weight linkage is coupled to the mounting plate. As the distributor shaft rpm increases, the flyweights move further out and the linkage acts to rotate the mounting plate in the CCW direction.

As you can imagine, at some point during a WOT situation (as the vacuum advance control on the mounting plate falls off and the force applied by the mechanical advance increases) the two systems pass by each other. From then on (as long as engine speed is rising and manifold vacuum is low), the mechanical advance mechanism has complete control over the degree of ignition timing advance.


But conversely, during low engine load/steady state conditions (i.e. when vacuum within the intake manifold is high and engine speed is low), the vacuum advance mechanism has control of spark timing. The linkage - which is attached to the diaphram inside the chamber - pulls in and begins to rotate the mounting plate in the CCW direction. When vacuum becomes high enough and engine speed drops low enough, the mounting plate position is then controlled by intake manifold pressure. It stays that way until engine speed climbs and vacuum drops.
 
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rich weyand

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Yup, all that is true.* The controversy is always how much to set for base timing, mechanical advance, and vacuum advance, and where the vacuum advance (in inches) and mechanical advance (in rpm) come in.

I like to run the base timing high, the vacuum advance to come off early with throttle application, and to run on base timing until the mechanical advance starts pulling in. That's how I learned it.

Obviously, there are other opinions.


* Except this: "It is important to understand that whichever system is in position to advance ignition timing to the greatest degree - that is the one that takes control." That's not correct. Vacuum and mechanical advance add together. Total advance at interstate cruise might be 16* base + 20* mechanical + 15* vacuum = 51* BTDC.
 
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350runner

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Hey rich no hard feelings I still have the same respect for you as I did before this conversation. Your an awesome dude with great knowledge. Jerry nailed it down to the T... there will always be a debate on what's what when speaking of ignition timing. Heck I've seen way worse conversations about spark plugs lol. Jerry has given an awesome illustration on how the distributor advance system works. Very good read. If one understands what was said they will understand that one advance takes control then backs off and gives control to the other. It's like having an assistant supervisor to a supervisor. One only has soo much control over making decisions before things escalate and the boss says I got this...

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rich weyand

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Thanks for that.

Let's see if I can explain why I set it the way I do. I know I won't convince you! But maybe it will help someone else understand what I am doing.

When the engine is at idle, the car stopped, and you tromp the throttle to launch the vehicle, there is almost no air flow through the engine, so no resistance through the carb and air cleaner and all, and the manifold pressure goes to 1 bar. At the same time, the engine has high load, because the drivetrain is at dead stop. The cylinder pressures go way up. This is the most likely point where an engine will detonate if the timing is too advanced.

For racing applications, they avoid this situation by running a torque converter with a higher lock rpm. The engine gets to wind up before it sees the full load of the drivetrain. This also lets them run cams that don't make as much torque down low; they wind the engine up to where the power band is before the torque converter locks. High-rpm torque converters are also a PITA to drive on the street, and put high streeses on transmissions.

In a street application, we have the engine at low rpm, the manifold at one bar, and the drivetrain load on the engine is a maximum. This is where detonation will occur if ever. The maximum power you can get from the charge in the engine at this point is with the earliest timing that will not cause knocking. This is why all the old geezer hot rodders and engine tuners I know say to advance the base timing until you get knocking, then back off 2 degrees to give some safety margin against variations in gasoline, atmospheric conditions (temperature, humidity, barometric pressure), and other variables.

As the engine speeds up, more air flows, and the induction system introduces some pressure loss, the vacuum comes up a bit and the cylinder pressures come down. The timing, which is set in degrees, gets shorter in milliseconds: 15 degrees of advance is 2.5 milliseconds at 1000 rpm, but is only 1.67 milliseconds at 1500 rpm and 1.25 milliseconds at 2000 rpm. If we already determined that 2.5 milliseconds was the detonation limit at 1000 rpm, then we have some head room now. We can add advance -- 2.5 milliseconds at 1500 rpm is 22.5 degrees, 7.5 degrees more than the base timing of 15 degrees, and 2.5 milliseconds at 2000 rpm is 30 degrees, 15 degrees over the 15 degrees base timing. The mechanical advance adds the extra advance we need to keep the engine in time but stay short of the detonation limit.

That's with the throttle plate wide open. Closing the throttle plate adds air resistance in the induction system, resulting in a lot of manifold vacuum and reduced cylinder pressures. These thinner mixtures raise the detonation limit a lot, because thinner mixtures burn more slowly and because compression heating of the charge is much less, and so we can add a lot more advance without stepping over the limit. The vacuum advance monitors the intake manifold and if set up properly adds additional timing based on the lower cylinder pressure.

This doesn't affect performance -- torque from launch through redline at wide open throttle conditions -- and so race cars don't run vacuum advance. Extra parts to break, and if it sticks advanced, the heads will go through the hood on launch. For a street car, though, where you are usually not at wide-open throttle, the vacuum advance affects driveability and mileage. Setting up the vacuum advance for smoothest idle, and setting the rpm it comes in at to enable vacuum advance at constant-speed cruise, should result in the best driveability and mileage. Having the vacuum advance drop out too early (higher number) will reduce mileage at cruise, having it drop out too late (lower number) risks going over the detonation limit in transition, such as cruising at speed and then stomping the throttle to pass.

Anyway, that's why I set mine the way I do.
 

350runner

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I see your setting your timing as if your racing. In a street application it's really no point unless the engine is being used to street race. Kudos there guy. Glad you have a way of making it work for you

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I'm not seeing the distinction between "setting the timing as if you are racing" and "street application." Can you elaborate?

I am intrigued and fascinated by this discussion - thank you to all who are contributing.

I run manifold vacuum. I also have 10.9:1 compression, and a 231@050/108lsa camshaft that idles at 8inHg in drive, with a 2500 stall converter. I run 20° base timing, 12° vacuum, and 15° mechanical advance, with MSD to help things burn. I am enjoying this discussion.
 

rich weyand

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I see your setting your timing as if your racing. In a street application it's really no point unless the engine is being used to street race. Kudos there guy. Glad you have a way of making it work for you

No, if I was setting it for racing I would ditch the vacuum advance and probably raise the base timing right to the detonation limit on premium gas.
 

rich weyand

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I'm not seeing the distinction between "setting the timing as if you are racing" and "street application." Can you elaborate?

I am intrigued and fascinated by this discussion - thank you to all who are contributing.

I run manifold vacuum. I also have 10.9:1 compression, and a 231@050/108lsa camshaft that idles at 8inHg in drive, with a 2500 stall converter. I run 20° base timing, 12° vacuum, and 15° mechanical advance, with MSD to help things burn. I am enjoying this discussion.

20* base timing at 10.9:1! Whooeeee! Betcha you're running the best gas you can buy, or using octane additive.

Sounds just about perfect to me if you can get away with 20* base timing. Your all in timing is 35*, your idle timing is 32*. Perfect.

With 8" at idle in drive, your vac advance ought to be set to drop out at 5-6" of vacuum so the timing doesn't hunt at idle. Did you make that mod?
 

350runner

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One who understands that street engines that run at 1300 to 2500rpms 90% of the time they are run understands that(hole shot) is the last thing to shoot for as the engine will not see that (hole shot) no where near as much as it will the cruise rpms noted. Those rpms are where your vacuum and centrifugal have taken over and left the initial on the bench, then there's wot where you have all your mechanical up to bat. You see it's here you want the most mechanical to achieve the most hp, during cruise you want vac to help burn the mixture a lil more. Think like this. Initial is like when aircraft carriers sling shot planes to get them moving that's it. After your moving you depend on the mechanical of that plane to keep you going... Cheers for a good conversation:)

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rich weyand

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Yup, 1300 to 2500 rpm is where you drive a street car most, and that's where base timing is, because the mechanical isn't all in until 2500. Unless you increase the weights or reduce the springs so that it comes in really early. In which case, why have mechanical advance at all? Your timing is the same all the time, so just rip out all that crap and set the timing where you want it.
 

350runner

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I see where this is going...Rich the mechanical doesn't need to be all the way in for the engine to run on mechanical. It comes in gradually for a reason the engine don't like too much at one time it'd ping and knock to the moon. It's basics like I started in my last post referring to timing and the aircraft carriers. That is how this works slow down and think for a sec.

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