no end play th350

[tkbp4him]

Hello, I have a 78 k10 with a "k" 4x4 housing with a "case saver" installed thats been rebuilt before that I am reusing per customer request. I have put in new bushings and clutches/steels, bearings, and thrush washers, new input shaft, and rubber seals on pistons. I put it all together which went well except for sanding the sun gear bushings due to being to tight then I put pump on with what it came off with which was a .017 shim and a bearing and I have "no" end play? I then removed shim, still no end play then I removed shim and bearing and replaced bearing with thinner thrush washer type and still no end play? I have two other thinner thrush washers to try but I was wondering if maybe someone might know if I am chasing my tail here or losing my mind? I am getting good at teardown and rebuild which I don't want anymore of....I want to it. I have other things to do besides play with this end play....help. I didn't take a end play reading at start due to how nasty the black oil was and it would only do reverse...I fiqured it was toast like I found during teardown. But I should get some end play now at least .011 or more... Any thoughts...anyone....anyone...thanks

 

[tkbp4him]

ok, Ive put the thinest thrush washer behind the pump and reassembled again and I still have no end play.??? I think maybe the pump is bottoming out inside the input shaft which is keeping it from coming up with any end play? I say this because before putting it together this time I assembled the input shaft with the direct clutch and pump together without housing and top steels and clutches and I could not move it and it seems like it dosent have any room to move if it wanted to due to pump bottoming out inside input shaft. I don't think the direct clutch is even touching the bottom side of the pump at the top for the thrush washers to matter? Without pump on the input shaft I can lift the input shaft up but once pump is on I get nothing... Were is my torch....just kidding...

update to self....I think tommorrow I will try disassembly again down to sun gear and try putting in thinner thrush washer and replacing bearings with thinner ones or washers just to see if this may give end play....? It seems to be only way to gain space and put input shaft lower in case to add room at top by pump....? We will see... good night...

 

[HotRodPC]

So are you saying it's so tight that you can't even move the input shaft? Now it's supposed to be very tight. You'd have to give it hell to grip the input shaft and spin it by hand. If you can carefully grip the splines with pliers, and do it squarely, so you don't damage the splines, then it should turn reasonable easy but with strain. If it won't turn it all, and the most common reason for this is, you don't have the clutches clocked properly in the front drums, direct and forward clutch packs. You're probably missing on 1 clutch in one of the 2 packs. Usually the direct drum to the Sun Gear which rides inside the sunshell is where most people will miss the last clutch.

 

[crazy4offroad]

Are you checking the end play from the opening from under the fluid pan towards the front of the trans? HR is right, it will be very tight upon reassembly, the bushings inside the pump may need slight clearancing with wd-40 and fine sandpaper, like 1000 grit just to loosen things up slightly, taking the bushing to the copper. You can also get thrust washers in thicknesses to adjust the end play once you get it to where things will move.

 

[MrMarty51]

Are you checking the end play from the opening from under the fluid pan towards the front of the trans? HR is right, it will be very tight upon reassembly, the bushings inside the pump may need slight clearancing with wd-40 and fine sandpaper, like 1000 grit just to loosen things up slightly, taking the bushing to the copper. You can also get thrust washers in thicknesses to adjust the end play once you get it to where things will move.

Very very carefully, a brake cylinder hone works good for this, using a cross hatch pattern and very short bursts, one is usually enought and using WD-40 as stated.

 

[tkbp4him]

no end play

ok, no end play update....I found out that the shim and bearing under the pump is not the problem...no matter what I do with the shims and bearing under pump I will not get end play, due to the pump bottoming out inside the input shaft. I removed a thrush washer on top of the "Gear, Input Ring, w/Bushing" which is on top of the Carrier, Output piece and then when all was installed I got a end play reading of .031/.032. The thrush washer was .061 thick new. Now I need another one thinner I quess like .030 to try so I can see if it gives me the correct .010 to .045 end play.? I am pretty sure you can't leave these two gears together without something inbetween them. But at least now I know where and how to get end play just need right thrush washer....So this is the fix for "no end play" after rebuild with new bushings, rubber, clutches and steels, shims, bearings and all that, just remember that what you take out might not be exactly what you put in thickness wise with the thrush washer below the input shaft.

 

[HotRodPC]

I wish I could understand where you're talking about. The only places for selective thrust washer is behind the pump torrington bearing or thrust washer, or at the rear of the case. No other selective thrust washers exist.

 

[tkbp4him]

I am talking about above the sun gear there is what my book calls a carrier, output, it has four small round gears on outside and a geared opening in the middle which slides onto the sun gear, gear then on top of this four small gear carrier there is a four tang metal round washer that I call a thrush washer? Maybe I am calling it what its not supposed to be call? Then up from here is a round notched on the outside gear that my book calls a "gear, input-ring, w/bushing" that goes down onto the small four gear previous piece. Then on top of this is another three tang what I call thrush metal washer. Hope this helps.? Mine measures .o61 thick new. Do you know if this is the correct place to get end play from? these two thrush washers that is? It seems to me the only place and if I remove one and then put it together I have some end play. But I know I can't leave out a thrush washer totally. I need one that is half as thick .030 to try if they make such a one. If this is were you / how you get end play from.?? It seems to work were everything else at the pump did not work? It would make sense to me.

 

[tkbp4him]

I am reading HP books "turbo hydra-matic 350 handbook by Ron Sessions page 199 see diag. if you have of coarse...

 

[MrMarty51]

Transmission shop`ll have them. NAPA store here will order in about anything a person`d need, even transmixer parts.

 

[teamssc]

Let me add to tkbp4him's post, since it's my transmission he's rebuilding, it turns clockwise and counterclockwise. The problem is the shaft won't move up and down (in and out), but it turns fine. I've also been reading a lot on it and there are some good ideas we'll look at. Just thought I would clarify as it seems there might have been some confusion.

Thanks all

 

[HotRodPC]

Yes, I know exactly all the parts you're talking about now. Yes, the 4 small gears are pinions that go inside the carrier to make what is called a planetary gearset. And yes a 4 tang trust washer goes over the top of the planet carrier then the what I've also seen called a sun gear, which I don't know why myself. Then you get the 3 tang thrust washer that goes over tha before you set your 2 drum back over that gets a plastic thrust washer right? There is also a metal one that can go there and it's thinner than the plastic one. Which one do you have now, and what did you replace it with???

 

[tkbp4him]

in reply to hotrodpc I have used all new metal washers, shims and bearings...the trans orignally had a plastic one that melted along with input shaft damage from bad bushings. My real questions is : can I buy thinner tanged thrush washers say .030 size that go on top of the planetary gear set or plant carrier so I get some end play which at the moment I have .061 metal tanged thrush washers on them both. Or am I trying to get end play at the wrong spot in the transmission? Should I be looking below the sun gear say below the low reverse piston and case area to take out bearings/shims their to give me more room above? Or is that even able to be done?

 

[tkbp4him]

Well, does anyone have any thoughts on the solution to this end play issue, ive been told different things, not sure which is most used method that will give me longevity? Do I switch out thrush washer .061 for .030 which Ive been told they sell, but then in same sentence been told its better to measure clutches and steels in drums and to add or remove clutches to get end play verses the thrush washer .030 idea?? Which I can't follow the idea with that due to the fact that I removed the same amount of used clutches and steels, don't see how they effect end play. Also been told that end play doesn't matter by one person?? Been told you have to have it which seems correct. I personally think that if I can get between .010 and .045 by buying a 4 or 3 tang thrush washer say a .030 one it will last 100,000 miles. I have some used ones that have only a few .003 or .004 thousand ware on them that came out of this same transmission I am rebuilding. That's my thought. Till I get a anwser rebuild is on hold.....waiting.....

 

[MrMarty51]

I`ve used used parts before with excellent results.
Whats the book say, where the end play is set from, follow the book.