Finally got the 4l60e in the Suburban..

[Christian Nelson]

And, it works!!!

Except...

NO OD!

Doesn't even act like it wants to shift into OD, just goes along in 3rd gear, like it was meant to. .

I checked out the servo, everything looks good, it's one of those billet super hold OD servos.

As a matter of fact, I believe I air tested the thing before I put it all together.

Now, I talked to some people, one guy says I need to hook it up to a computer to see if the computer is even commanding it to shift into 4th.

I've checked the linkage, P is park, R is Reverse, N is neutral, etc, so I don't think that is it.

Since it is going 1st 2nd, 3rd just fine, nice firm shifts, no loose or sliiping, I am wondering if I have something hung up in the valve body.

My dad even wonders if maybe the cold temps we've been dealing with is not letting the vasilene dissolve in the valve body.

My next move is I need to buy some more of those stupid blue orings to pull that servo off again, and try the original stock setup, and see if that changes anything, and maybe try to find a shop willing to check this out with a scanner, and not gonna just lecture me about DIY and I should leave this to pros, and they don't wanna look at it.

WHat do y'all think?

Big questions for you all right now.

Where can I find a cheap scanner that will work with this thing, and command 4th gear manually?

Is it safe to drive it like this?

Do you guys think I am barking up the wrong tree?

Original issue with this trany was the 3-4 clutch pack burned up. Replace with Alto red/Kolene 3-4 pack, all the rest of the clutches and steels, disassembled and reassembled the valve body, pump etc. put a Sonnax boost valve in, transgo hardened valve body plate in, corvette servo, pinless accumulators, new band, and billet OD servo cover with heavier apply. Beast reaction shell. Oh, and I also replaced the pressure manifold with a new one. New a and b solenoid.

 

[oneluckypops]

Lots of variables could cause a no 4th gear situation. I would agree that you need to verify that the computer is even requesting 4th gear FIRST.

After you verify that the computer is requesting 4th gear (OD) the next step in your daignostics should be to test ALL solenoids in the valve body, you can do this with the pan on or off, with the pan on you will find it much easier to test them with an extra harness that you can plug into the case connector. HOWEVER you will sometimes miss diagnose a solenoid if you dont air test them aswell.

What vehichle are you working on anyhow?

 

[Christian Nelson]

Vehicle is a 1993 Suburban.

Sorry it's not a square, you guys seem to know about these as well though, so I have been picking your brains about it.

I need to figure out how to read this PCM, I don't think it is OBD2..

The solenoids seem to be working, since 1, 2, and 3rd are all working.

If solenoid was faulty, I would expect 1 would not work either.

I put new ones in when I was seeing if that was why 3rd wasn't working before I tore it down and found the 3-4 clutches toast.

I've heard some say vasilene is bad (I used it because video I was using and ATSG manual said it was ok, in place of transgel) because it can gum up the valve body, and not dissolve properly, causing some valves to hang up, or plug some vents.. I would think the pressure would be too high for that to plug it too badly, what do you think?

If the PCM is not calling for 4th gear, what then, replace PCM?

What would cause that?

I mean, the 3-4 clutched burning up was pretty straightforward, low on fluid, burned clutches. I didn't expect anything else to be wrong, I didn't see anything else mechanically wrong when I tore it down..

Accumulator was scored, but I put a replacement one on..

 

[RetroC10Sport]

1993 will still be OBD1.

 

[HotRodPC]

I'd think it shouldn't be one of the shift solenoids if you're getting 1 thru 3. How about converter lock up? Are you getting that in 3rd gear? That needs to be part of your diagnosis too. Some models don't lock up in 3rd though, they only lock up in OD, so find out which model yours is.
The vaseline is fine. After the first good warming up of the trans, the vaseline melts down and becomes part of the fluid and since its petroleum based, its all good and should not be of any problem. It can be for the first few miles, but after that, and a good warm normal operating temp, the vaseline becomes non existant other than if you pull the dipstick the fluid could look a little cloudy depending on how much vaseline you used for assembly, but after 100 miles or so, that cloudiness is usally gone too.

 

[oneluckypops]

Retro is correct. 93 model will be an OBD I computer.

IF the ECM is NOT commanding a 4th gear it could very well be a faulty ECM, But does NOT mean positively that it is. The computer commands the shifts based on reference voltages it receives from other sensors such as, ECT MAP,TPS, VSS, CKP, as well as O2 sensors. It is unlikely a sensor issue, usually a faulty sensor will result in either a 1st gear ONLY, early shifts, late shifts, and surging.

1 question for you. When you re assembled the valve body, one of the valves has 2 slots in the valve body that you can install the retaining clip in, the book is NOT clear on which slot to use, failure to install it in the correct slot could be the cause of a no 4th gear.

ok 2 questions for you. When you reassembled the transmission, your kit should have came with 4 valve body gaskets, 2 of them have a notch in the shape of a "C", and 2 of them will have a notch in the shape of a "V", they indicate case side of the seperator plate, and valve body side of the seperator plate, 1 of each "C" and "V" should have has a white line thru them, those gaskets are for 2001 and later 4l60E's, the ones with out them are for the 2000 and earlier, If you used the wrong gaskets it could be part of your problem aswell.

Vaseline is not likely your problem, as HRPC already stated it is 100% safe to use as an assembly lube, now with that said you do NOT want to use alot of it, it honestly doesn't take much to hold the check balls in place, I also reccomend to replace the filter and fluid after 500 miles of the rebuild.

The most common no 4th gear after rebuild I see is when a Do it your selfer tried to rebuild it themself, (no offense intented) they will tear all the lip seals out of the pistons and the O-ring out of the drum, then put the new lip seals back on the pistons but FORGET to install the new O-ring in the drum. BUT it should still try to shift to 4th just never engage, 5 miles of this condition will smoke the new 3-4 clutches.

As far as a computer to read your data. IMO you have 2 options. 1 you take it to a shop and let them do the computer diagnostics, or 2 you buy your own scanner, NOT A CODE READER it wont tell you ****. For the age of the vehichle and a DIY type person I would suggest going to fleabay do a search for an ole brick scanner from snap on (MT2500) they can be had for around 100-200 bucks. The problem I see is with it being an OBD I I dont remember if you can actually command the gear state manually, I think you will just have to drive it and watch the Transmission values as you drive.

 

[RetroC10Sport]

Doesn't TunerProRT do a realtime scan of the trans? I haven't used it in that sense for a little while...

I suppose i should to see why my 4T60-E is acting up...

 

[HotRodPC]

Pops is right about newbies tearing up and forgeting lip seals, but if you pressure tested all the drums as you said you did, then that should not be an issue or torn seals should have shown up in your air test and is exactly why you do the air tests, so if you're confident you air tested all you could, and it was right, then you can likely skip that possibility.

 

[Christian Nelson]

Retro is correct. 93 model will be an OBD I computer.

IF the ECM is NOT commanding a 4th gear it could very well be a faulty ECM, But does NOT mean positively that it is. The computer commands the shifts based on reference voltages it receives from other sensors such as, ECT MAP,TPS, VSS, CKP, as well as O2 sensors. It is unlikely a sensor issue, usually a faulty sensor will result in either a 1st gear ONLY, early shifts, late shifts, and surging.

That's what I was thinking, the fact that everything else seems to work seemed to me that it didn't make sense that there was a solenoid or sensor error.

1 question for you. When you re assembled the valve body, one of the valves has 2 slots in the valve body that you can install the retaining clip in, the book is NOT clear on which slot to use, failure to install it in the correct slot could be the cause of a no 4th gear.

Ok, this is something to look at, do you remember which valve it is?

ok 2 questions for you. When you reassembled the transmission, your kit should have came with 4 valve body gaskets, 2 of them have a notch in the shape of a "C", and 2 of them will have a notch in the shape of a "V", they indicate case side of the seperator plate, and valve body side of the seperator plate, 1 of each "C" and "V" should have has a white line thru them, those gaskets are for 2001 and later 4l60E's, the ones with out them are for the 2000 and earlier, If you used the wrong gaskets it could be part of your problem aswell.

I was careful to get this part correct, verified that "C" went to case, and "V" went to valve, and also superimposed the old gaskets over the new ones to be sure which one's to use by matching up the holes. The 2001 up one did not have the same shape holes.

Vaseline is not likely your problem, as HRPC already stated it is 100% safe to use as an assembly lube, now with that said you do NOT want to use alot of it, it honestly doesn't take much to hold the check balls in place, I also reccomend to replace the filter and fluid after 500 miles of the rebuild.

Well, I slathered a bunch into the check ball areas, and also used a thin coating to lube the valves in the valve body as I put them in, I haven't put many miles on it, just up and down the road maybe a mile or so a couple of times, wondering if maybe I need to let it run a little longer, but am afraid of damaging anything if I run it too long like this.

The most common no 4th gear after rebuild I see is when a Do it your selfer tried to rebuild it themself, (no offense intented) they will tear all the lip seals out of the pistons and the O-ring out of the drum, then put the new lip seals back on the pistons but FORGET to install the new O-ring in the drum. BUT it should still try to shift to 4th just never engage, 5 miles of this condition will smoke the new 3-4 clutches.

None taken, are you speaking of the INPUT drum? Which oring are you talking about, could you list the # from the exploded view on the top of this page? http://www.bulkpart.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=2&Category_Code=4L60E-4L65E

Would this show up in the air test? I followed the video, performed the air tests, as suggested.

As far as a computer to read your data. IMO you have 2 options. 1 you take it to a shop and let them do the computer diagnostics, or 2 you buy your own scanner, NOT A CODE READER it wont tell you ****. For the age of the vehichle and a DIY type person I would suggest going to fleabay do a search for an ole brick scanner from snap on (MT2500) they can be had for around 100-200 bucks. The problem I see is with it being an OBD I I dont remember if you can actually command the gear state manually, I think you will just have to drive it and watch the Transmission values as you drive.

Hmm, not sure if I want to invest in something for OBD1, especially if it won't allow me to command stuff. I wonder if there's something I can set up on a laptop??

 

[HotRodPC]

I'm not going to get much into detail and screw up the on going conversation you have with Pops since he is more knowledgable about the E transmission than me, and vice versa on the Non E transmissions, but the O rings being reffered to, are the O rings on the clutch drum pistons. Some don't even use O rings anymore, they use a piston with the seal built into it. Not sure if you got one of those type or not. If you did the air test according to the video, I'd say that isn't your problem, being a bad lip seal.

 

[Christian Nelson]

Looks like I can make my own cable, and run some free software called Tuner pro, etc, and that should give me the info, that will take a bit of doing for me.. I still can't get out of my head that I think it's something in the valve body, the whole "doesn't need much vaseline" thing has me spooked, 'cause I really filled the passages up to keep the check balls in place, I didn't want them falling out on me.

Not sure if I have gotten it warm enough to dissolve it all either.

I saw on line that a few people have found after market billet servo covers causing this same issue, so I think I may try to swap out the old servo too..

I really don't think I tore any lipseals on any of the pistons, I built my own lip seal installation tool from a piece of radio antenna, and a folded over length of welding wire from my wirefeed welder. Worked slick.

ANother thing to check was the VSS, but again, this would be a new problem that just showed up, I am just doubtful about that stuff, and the brake switch thing has been brought up too.

Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention, it is NOT locking up the torque converter as far as I can tell, but I believe it is one of the ones that will not engage until it is in OD.

 

[oneluckypops]

Responses in red

That's what I was thinking, the fact that everything else seems to work seemed to me that it didn't make sense that there was a solenoid or sensor error.



Ok, this is something to look at, do you remember which valve it is?
shift solenoid i do beleive



I was careful to get this part correct, verified that "C" went to case, and "V" went to valve, and also superimposed the old gaskets over the new ones to be sure which one's to use by matching up the holes. The 2001 up one did not have the same shape holes.




Well, I slathered a bunch into the check ball areas, and also used a thin coating to lube the valves in the valve body as I put them in, I haven't put many miles on it, just up and down the road maybe a mile or so a couple of times, wondering if maybe I need to let it run a little longer, but am afraid of damaging anything if I run it too long like this.
WOOOOOOO hold on, a tip for you when your wanting to hold the check balls in place. Just put a dab on your finger and smear it in the hole where the ball goes, then put the ball in it, honestly you can actually take the ball and stick it in the jar to get a coat of lube on it and it will hold itself in. I am suprised you even got the valves back into the bore if you coated the valves. You do not need to apply and lube to the valves when reinstalling,but if you choose to just use transmission fluid. When you first start dumping fluid in after install that will lube the valvebody.


None taken, are you speaking of the INPUT drum? Which oring are you talking about, could you list the # from the exploded view on the top of this page? http://www.bulkpart.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=2&Category_Code=4L60E-4L65E

Yes i am referring to the input drum, I couldnt get your link to open for me but I will look the number up elsewhere, The O-ring I am speaking of should be a blue oring NOT the lip seal.

Would this show up in the air test? I followed the video, performed the air tests, as suggested.

As far as the air test failing if the oring is forgotten, in theory it should fail BUT depending on how much assembly lube was used while assembling the piston and how much air pressure you were using it could very well pass an air test.


Hmm, not sure if I want to invest in something for OBD1, especially if it won't allow me to command stuff. I wonder if there's something I can set up on a laptop??

I think you misunderstood me, the MT2500 (brick) is NOT soley an OBD I scanner, it will come with all the different adapters to do ford chevy dodge, foreign, AND OBD II depending on what it is updated to. Personally I would rather have the scanner then I would a laptop, simple operation for road testing, Also has the abilities to do air bag, ABS, ect. ect.

I'm not going to get much into detail and screw up the on going conversation you have with Pops since he is more knowledgable about the E transmission than me, and vice versa on the Non E transmissions, but the O rings being reffered to, are the O rings on the clutch drum pistons. Some don't even use O rings anymore, they use a piston with the seal built into it. Not sure if you got one of those type or not. If you did the air test according to the video, I'd say that isn't your problem, being a bad lip seal.

Not referring to the lip seals there is a blue oring that goes on the drum inself

Looks like I can make my own cable, and run some free software called Tuner pro, etc, and that should give me the info, that will take a bit of doing for me.. I still can't get out of my head that I think it's something in the valve body, the whole "doesn't need much vaseline" thing has me spooked, 'cause I really filled the passages up to keep the check balls in place, I didn't want them falling out on me.

Not sure if I have gotten it warm enough to dissolve it all either.

I saw on line that a few people have found after market billet servo covers causing this same issue, so I think I may try to swap out the old servo too..

I really don't think I tore any lipseals on any of the pistons, I built my own lip seal installation tool from a piece of radio antenna, and a folded over length of welding wire from my wirefeed welder. Worked slick.

ANother thing to check was the VSS, but again, this would be a new problem that just showed up, I am just doubtful about that stuff, and the brake switch thing has been brought up too.

Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention, it is NOT locking up the torque converter as far as I can tell, but I believe it is one of the ones that will not engage until it is in OD.

If you are going to try the old servo MAKE SURE YOU TEAR IT APART they will trap contiminated fluid, you dont want that getting back into your Transmission. Also if you already have it it sure wont hurt to try it.

It is highly possable that your valve body is plugged from the excessive assembly lube if you used it for the valves aswell as the check balls.

 

[Christian Nelson]

shift solenoid i do beleive

I will check that out, and see.

WOOOOOOO hold on, a tip for you when your wanting to hold the check balls in place. Just put a dab on your finger and smear it in the hole where the ball goes, then put the ball in it, honestly you can actually take the ball and stick it in the jar to get a coat of lube on it and it will hold itself in. I am suprised you even got the valves back into the bore if you coated the valves. You do not need to apply and lube to the valves when reinstalling,but if you choose to just use transmission fluid. When you first start dumping fluid in after install that will lube the valvebody.

I was worried about the check balls moving. I guess I got carried away. The valves, I just lightly smeared a bit on them, but if it isn't dissolving, it may gum up the works. Shouldn't it eventually dissolve though?

Yes i am referring to the input drum, I couldnt get your link to open for me but I will look the number up elsewhere, The O-ring I am speaking of should be a blue oring NOT the lip seal.

It was just a .pdf, I found it on my ATSG manual (I think) #622 Input to fwd housing O-ring seal? THe very first thing you'd put into the input housing before the 3-4 clutch piston, right? I think mine was green, but yeah, I remember putting that one in, I saved the old one, and the new one in my package was used up, so I am fairly certain it didn't get missed, it is also in the video I used, I played it back to jog my memory.

As far as the air test failing if the oring is forgotten, in theory it should fail BUT depending on how much assembly lube was used while assembling the piston and how much air pressure you were using it could very well pass an air test.

I just barely coated the lip seals with it with my finger, and the sealing surface, I used 40 psi, as reccomended.

I think you misunderstood me, the MT2500 (brick) is NOT soley an OBD I scanner, it will come with all the different adapters to do ford chevy dodge, foreign, AND OBD II depending on what it is updated to. Personally I would rather have the scanner then I would a laptop, simple operation for road testing, Also has the abilities to do air bag, ABS, ect. ect.

Ah, gotcha, I may get one, just 'cause I should probably have one if I am going to become the greatest tranny guy in the world Seriously though, I have had many occasions where I wished I had one. Didn't know they were that accessible.

If you are going to try the old servo MAKE SURE YOU TEAR IT APART they will trap contiminated fluid, you dont want that getting back into your Transmission. Also if you already have it it sure wont hurt to try it.

Absolutely! I have it all cleaned and ready to go, we just got 6" of snow dumped on us, and truck is outside, so I may have to delay this abit.

It is highly possable that your valve body is plugged from the excessive assembly lube if you used it for the valves aswell as the check balls.

Yeah, I wonder just how hot I would need to get it to dissolve that junk, being that it's been below freezing out on all my test drives, I wonder if it just hasn't had a chance to clear that stuff..

Big thing I worried about, and didn't wanna drive it too far like this was I didn't wanna wreck something by driving it like this, if it was going to..

Another thing I did some research, and it caused me to remember as I was disassembling the valve body, a couple of the plugs were really stuck in the bores, and I needed to grab them with pliers to pull them out, I didn't gouge them too bad, and smoothed them out with sand paper, but I read this and it has me wondering if the plug is allowing the fluid to leak and not activate the 3-4 relay valve, which according to my other book this in turn pushes on the 4-3 sequence valve, which delivers the pressure to the 4th servo apply.

If that plug is leaking, the valve won't move, am i right?

Heres a pic of a sonnax description of what I am speaking of. There were two plugs that were like this, and I believe if memory servs me correctly, I believe these are the same ones...

Does this seem reasonable?

If it is not the oring on the input drum, is this safe to drive to see if is is just gunk that will eventually clear?

Thank you so much for the help and encouragement so far!

 

[HotRodPC]

If I am understanding you right on the plugs, I'd think if anything you'd still get some 4th gear, maybe slip a little if the plug is leaking and letting some of the fluid pressure bypass. If its not enough pressure to activate the relay valve, then sure I'd say it's possible, but for some reason, I'm thinking not likely. Let's wait and see what Pops says about it. Agian, he's more of the E trans guru, I'm more of the Non E trans guru.

 

[Christian Nelson]

Well, If you say the leaking plug won't cause it, I believe you. I just looked up no OD, and found this valve, and valve plugs being one of the issues.. Again doesn't seem as likely as the vaslien gunking up the works. I haven't driven any more than 1/4 mile in the thing, so I doubt it has gotten very hot. I will put plates on it, and drive it 10 miles, and see if it changes, hopefully I don't wreck the 3-4 clutches doing it..

That sound safe to you? I am paranoid about wrecking something by driving it, but if the stuff needs to get hot to clear out, then I need to get it hot by driving it..

Right?