Dumb Question - TBI Distributor

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Daveo91Burb

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How does the advance work? I know it's determined and controlled by the ECM but HOW does the ECM control it? I mean the shaft and therefore the rotor are rigidly connected to the engine reciprocating assembly via the cam, so the relative position between the rotor and the distributor body/cap is static and can't be altered. Is that correct? On a carb HEI, there is vacuum and centrifugal advance which alters that relative position, doesn't seem like there is such a mechanism on TBI so I don't see how the spark can be delivered earlier than when the rotor and cap contact each other. But I must be Missing something or have something wrong????


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chengny

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You are right - within the distributor of an EST ignition system there is no provision to physically vary the relative position of the rotor to the posts. Once the base timing is set and the shaft is clamped down, that's it - the shaft/rotor are rigidly coupled to the cam. The rotor to post position will always be what it is then.

But everything above also applies to a standard HEI ignition system. Once the distributor is clamped down, the relative position of rotor to post is fixed.

I think the misunderstanding here is what parts are actually moved to vary ignition timing. It isn't the distributor shaft or rotor that are indexed by the vacuum advance actuator. If you look closely, the vacuum advance arm is connected to the base ring.:

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Mounted on the the base ring is the reluctor ring. Timing is controlled by changing the position of the reluctor ring/pickup coil to the reluctor.

Here is how the vacuum advance operates. When the rod that comes out of the “can” and up through the pickup point indicated by the yellow arrow is pulled toward the can under vacuum conditions, it rotates the base (white arrow). This advances the timing.

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The reluctor is fixed to the distributor shaft and the pickup coil is mounted on the base ring described above. The base ring is free to rotate and is mechanically coupled to arm of the vacuum advance. As the reluctor spins, the relative motion across the stationary nodes of the reluctor ring coil produces an induced AC voltage in the pickup coil. Rotating the base/reluctor ring around the reluctor varies the timing of when peak voltage is attained. That is how the ignition timing of a non-EST style HEI distributor is controlled.

The problem is that when voltage is produced this way, it gradually rises and falls in the form of a sine wave. But, the main ignition coil requires a pulsed trigger signal - one that is either on or off - to trigger the collapse of the magnetic field in its windings.

Thats where the ignition module comes in. The module takes the sloppy sine wave voltage supplied by the pickup coil and cleans it up (so it snaps on and off). It then uses that sharply pulsed signal to make/break the ground leg of the ignition coil's windings. Each time it snaps the ground leg open, the magnetic field in the windings collapses and the coil fires - first down into the rotor, then into the plug wire and finally to the plug.

So, as described above - probably in greater detail than you needed - control of ignition timing in an HEI system without EST, is all done by the distributor itself - using it's internal electronics and vacuum advance. All it requires externally is 12 VDC at the B+ terminal of the main coil.


Now for your question about how this is accomplished with EST:


The acronym "EST" stands for Electronic Spark Timing. With these systems, the trigger that the ignition module uses to break the coil's ground leg (which collapses the magnetic field which produces the spark that fires the plug) is externally supplied. It comes from the ECM and is already in the form required by the ignition module - a pulsed, electronic 5V signal.

So - under normal operating conditions - instead of being responsible for control over its own ignition timing, the EST distributor is externally controlled. It opens the coil's ground leg only when the ECM tells it to.

The reluctor and pickup coil are still installed and part of the system, but their only purpose is to control timing at initial start up. As soon as engine RPM exceeds 400, the ECM switches control over to itself. The trigger signal from the reluctor and pickup coil continues to be generated and sent to the control module, but it is kept isolated from the system and not used again until the next startup. (how this is done is explained below)

So, the ECM takes control of ignition timing at 400 RPM and keeps it until the engine is shut down.

EST is considered to be a vast improvement because the ECM has access to real-time data which is supplied by a number of engine management sensors. Using those inputs, it is able to calculate the optimal degree of ignition timing for any given operating condition.

On the other hand, the standard HEI distributor - while very dependable and a huge improvement over the breaker point type - is still essentially flying blind. Other than an indication that low manifold pressure exists - via the vacuum advance actuator - a non EST distributor has no other inputs from external sources that would help it adjust timing for best engine performance.

Ignition Control Module pins:

NOTE: the pin designations in this example are for discussion only - they stand for E = EST signal, B = By-pass signal, R = reference signal. The pins on an actual module will be A, B, C & D

The ignition control module has an internal by-pass switch that is controlled by a signal from the ECM (on pin B). Under 400 RPM, the by-pass switch connects the output of the signal converter to the transistor. This is the default position. The input signal for the converter originates from the pickup coil (on pins P & N). The transistor then uses the signal from the by-pass switch to cycle the coil's ground leg open/closed.

At 400 RPM the ECM sends a 5V signal (on pin B) to the module commanding the by-pass switch to disconnect from the pickup coil and connect to the EST pin at the ECM. From that point on, the trigger signal to the transistor is provided by the ECM to the module (at pin E).

The remaining two pins - "R" & the unlabeled one - provide a reference signal to the ECM that it uses to confirm proper ignition system operation. If the ECM doesn't see a pulsed signal, for more than 2 seconds, it will command the fuel pump relays open and cut off the fuel supply.

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1987 GMC Jimmy

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Check out the big brain on Brett! Seriously, though, that's a really good explanation of that system. I looked on the internet because I didn't know and couldn't find one as good as that one.
 

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Camar068

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This is a tasty burger. Say what again I dare ya!

lol look at Marvin in the corner. If he only knew how bad bumps in the road are to your health.
 

1987 GMC Jimmy

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This is a tasty burger. Say what again I dare ya!

lol look at Marvin in the corner. If he only knew how bad bumps in the road are to your health.

Lol, yeah. He's the one who looks like a bitch, not Marcellus Wallace.
 

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Thanks for the very detailed answer! And thanks for making me see that even in a non-EST dist the relative position between the rotor and cap posts is fixed and mechanical advance does not change it. I totally see that now. And I also see how mechanical advance does change the position between the reluctor and pickup coil. But what I'm not seeing, (and now I think it applies to all distributors!) is, if that position between rotor and post does not change, and is rigidly connected to the cam, how does the pulse to the spark plug get sent down the ignition wire any sooner than what the base timing is? Isn't the only time it can pulse is when the rotor contacts the post for a given cylinder in the cap?

Gotta be an easy answer and something this dumb civil engineer (we don't think in sine waves and imaginary numbers like our EE friends do) is not seeing...it's been done this way for a long long time!
 
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chengny

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Thanks for the very detailed answer! And thanks for making me see that even in a non-EST dist the relative position between the rotor and cap posts is fixed and mechanical advance does not change it. I totally see that now. And I also see how mechanical advance does change the position between the reluctor and pickup coil. But what I'm not seeing, (and now I think it applies to all distributors!) is, if that position between rotor and post does not change, and is rigidly connected to the cam, how does the pulse to the spark plug get sent down the ignition wire any sooner than what the base timing is? Isn't the only time it can pulse is when the rotor contacts the post for a given cylinder in the cap?

Gotta be an easy answer and something this dumb civil engineer (we don't think in sine waves and imaginary numbers) is not seeing...it's been done this way for a long long time!

No, you have everything right - except that you might be unclear on how the ignition voltage is transferred from the rotor to the individual post contacts.

Isn't the only time it can pulse is when the rotor contacts the post for a given cylinder in the cap?

The tip of the rotor never makes contact with the post contacts. It doesn't even come close. The standard rotor to post clearance/gap is .100" - .125" - (i.e. between a tenth and an eighth of an inch):

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The 40,000 volt potential produced by the ignition coil can easily jump a 1/8" gap. So, with that said (and if you believe me), you can also see how changing the timing away from the initial set point won't impact the transfer of potential energy from the rotor to the posts. If the coil fires when the rotor is a little bit before or after it passes by the post, it doesn't matter. The spark will just jump the gap at an angle.

The rotor is firing 8 times every revolution - every time it passes a post contact. For the sake of argument let's say the the posts are about an inch apart - or about a 1/2" on either side of the post. You have set the timing at 10 BTDC. When the coil fires, the middle of the rotor tip might be somewhere around 3/16 from the center of the post contact - an easy jump even at that distance. But the tip of the rotor - no matter what type of ignition system - has some degree of width - as does the post contact.

Let's say, for this example,that the rotor tip is 1/4" wide. Divided by 2 is 1/8". If the contact post is also 1/4" wide, that brings the edge 1/8" closer to the rotor. Now the angular distance from the rotor to the post essentially zero. The leading edge of the rotor is in line with the closest part of the post contact:

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On a side note; you can see that if you take the ignition timing too far off TDC - like 22 degrees in either direction...it's possible to fire the next or previous post.
 

chengny

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Check out the big brain on Brett! Seriously, though, that's a really good explanation of that system. I looked on the internet because I didn't know and couldn't find one as good as that one.

You know, I always thought he said "Check out the big brain on Brad". Thanks, now I know better.
 

1987 GMC Jimmy

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It really sounds like he says it Brad right there, but the scene where Vincent and Jules first walk into the apartment and Jules says "Let me guess... You're Brett" comes out a lot clearer.
 

Daveo91Burb

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Thanks for helping me understand! Makes a lot more sense now. I was pretty sure it hinged on how the rotor interacted with the posts, just wasn't sure about the specifics - kept getting hung up on that part if it's too far one way it would fire the wrong cylinder. But the rotor only turns once for every two crank revs so I guess that 8 degree BTDC on the balancer would only be 4 degrees on the rotor.

I'm good now. Every little bit of this v=ir and P=i^2*R stuff I can understand, the better!
 

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