which 700R4?

[Lewis]

I have a 1984 K10 4WD with a 350 c.i. engine and matching 700R4 transmission. The transmission is toast! Will one of the improved later model 700R4's such as 1987 or 1988 be a direct, plug and play swap or do I need to change something? You sage advice is greatly appreciated!

 

[Vbb199]

87-91, the 90 and 91 do use vss for the speedo however (with a pigtail for speedo signal)
But yes, if you wanna go to the better 87+ units, it should go right in

 

[Lewis]

Thank you so much! I think I will try for an 87 or 88 transmission.
Hope you have a Happy New Year!!!

 

[Matt69olds]

The best cores are the ones with the St Louis arch shaped casting line on the passenger side. Those will have the auxiliary valve body, better input sprag, better 3-4 clutch setup, the list goes on.

Typical GM, once they improve and perfect the design, they discontinue it and start over on another pile of crap b

 

[Turbo4whl]

The best cores are the ones with the St Louis arch shaped casting line on the passenger side. Those will have the auxiliary valve body, better input sprag, better 3-4 clutch setup, the list goes on.

Typical GM, once they improve and perfect the design, they discontinue it and start over on another pile of crap b

Hey Matt, If you have a picture of the casting with the arch, would you please post it? Thanks, Wayne

 

[Matt69olds]

This is the arch you looking for.

 

[John-Ryan]

Make sure to upgrade the cooler along with the new addition..makes a big difference

 

[Turbo4whl]

Thank you Matt. I saved the picture this time.

 

[AuroraGirl]

The best cores are the ones with the St Louis arch shaped casting line on the passenger side. Those will have the auxiliary valve body, better input sprag, better 3-4 clutch setup, the list goes on.

Typical GM, once they improve and perfect the design, they discontinue it and start over on another pile of crap b

Im not sure if you know this but the 4l60e was a perfect design... after they started over and had to iron them out over a long period and even then mis-used the applications severely and also refused to put coolers in many of the things it should also have had.

The 440-t4 to 4t60 to 4t60e wasnt nearly that bad of a transition like 700r4 4l60 4l60e

 

[AuroraGirl]

The best cores are the ones with the St Louis arch shaped casting line on the passenger side. Those will have the auxiliary valve body, better input sprag, better 3-4 clutch setup, the list goes on.

Typical GM, once they improve and perfect the design, they discontinue it and start over on another pile of crap b

Also their FWD brakes and suspension and drivelines... They hammered good technology out of cars just to throw that out the window in 2006 and then switched it all up to re-invent those systems basically in similar ways including going from fasteners with good torque specs and angle to torque to yield on everything and its mother with each fastener being pretty much only from them now and then also discontinuing a **** load of them now since time has passed. They also did that for money, clearly, and people werent buying them as mcuch as they planned. now you got people with malibus with wheel bearings and brake calipers falling off and all those nice aluminum components getting demolished when the bolts shear and it eats a little road or wheel or axle or fender etc

 

[Matt69olds]

Im not sure if you know this but the 4l60e was a perfect design... after they started over and had to iron them out over a long period and even then mis-used the applications severely and also refused to put coolers in many of the things it should also have had.

The 440-t4 to 4t60 to 4t60e wasnt nearly that bad of a transition like 700r4 4l60 4l60e

The 4L60 and 4L60E internals are almost identical up until 2009ish. Then the started adding input speed sensors (you can’t access the pressure regulator assembly with the trans installed) internal neutral safety switch, special bolts that hold the bellhousing to the case, the list goes on.

In my opinion, Hydromatic should have skipped the PWM torque converter clutch design. Every time the converter clutch engages, the PWM valve cycles a few dozen times. Since GM was too cheap to anodize the valve body, the valve and bore wear. Then the converter clutch slips, burns up the clutch, cooks the fluid, abd it’s all downhill from there. There are valve available in the aftermarket that delete the PWM function.


Around the same time the PWM came out, GM also included lots of durability upgrades. They eliminated some thrust washers for bearings, changes to the 3-4 clutch pack, better roller clutch design, etc. Also around the same time, aluminum accumulator pistons disappeared, to be replaced with plastic. one step forward, 2 steps back.

 

[AuroraGirl]

The 4L60 and 4L60E internals are almost identical up until 2009ish. Then the started adding input speed sensors (you can’t access the pressure regulator assembly with the trans installed) internal neutral safety switch, special bolts that hold the bellhousing to the case, the list goes on.

In my opinion, Hydromatic should have skipped the PWM torque converter clutch design. Every time the converter clutch engages, the PWM valve cycles a few dozen times. Since GM was too cheap to anodize the valve body, the valve and bore wear. Then the converter clutch slips, burns up the clutch, cooks the fluid, abd it’s all downhill from there. There are valve available in the aftermarket that delete the PWM function.


Around the same time the PWM came out, GM also included lots of durability upgrades. They eliminated some thrust washers for bearings, changes to the 3-4 clutch pack, better roller clutch design, etc. Also around the same time, aluminum accumulator pistons disappeared, to be replaced with plastic. one step forward, 2 steps back.

does the 4l60 have boost valves and did they remove those at some point too or was htat just the transaxles?
also, didnt the 4l60e have a lot of part and durability oopsies in the mid 90, generally getting ok in 96, then on to what you all said?
The PWM thing was because chuggle and driveline lashes were being complained about and instead of fixing the sloppy tolerances and resonating components they decided to make a converter that slips to a degree large enough to use the torque converter to hide the sensations. how nice.

"This behavior is normal" is written in way too many TSBs. especially with really smug titles too

especially the one on Low voltage and dimming lights,
"your vehicle has many loads and the short trips youre taking are the reason its not staying charged not the undersized alternator because we loaded your vehicle with electrical loads and gave it a 105 amp alternator"

 

[Matt69olds]

I never invested in the 4T60 tools, I have built a few and hated them. Just too many little parts and pieces. I’m not sure about boost valves on those units.

You can always tell if a engine has suffered from a misfire by the worn teeth on the clutch plates. The constant “fish bite” tug wears both the clutch and the part it’s splined to.

I have the ATSG books for both the 4L60 and 4L60E, along with the 4L60E interchange and update book. The update book is probably 200 pages and explains all the design changes and the reason for them, and what parts can be retrofitted to older models.

I was always told the PWM crap was developed because consumers didn’t like the abrupt feeling of the clutch engaging. To me, it seems that could have easily been fixed by PCM calibration. If your going fast enough, TCC feels just like another shift. Unless locking up the converter early helps meet the ever tightening fuel economy standards and emissions requirements, i see no benefit. Then again, those kinds of decisions would be far above my pay grade

 

[AuroraGirl]

I never invested in the 4T60 tools, I have built a few and hated them. Just too many little parts and pieces. I’m not sure about boost valves on those units.

You can always tell if a engine has suffered from a misfire by the worn teeth on the clutch plates. The constant “fish bite” tug wears both the clutch and the part it’s splined to.

I have the ATSG books for both the 4L60 and 4L60E, along with the 4L60E interchange and update book. The update book is probably 200 pages and explains all the design changes and the reason for them, and what parts can be retrofitted to older models.

I was always told the PWM crap was developed because consumers didn’t like the abrupt feeling of the clutch engaging. To me, it seems that could have easily been fixed by PCM calibration. If your going fast enough, TCC feels just like another shift. Unless locking up the converter early helps meet the ever tightening fuel economy standards and emissions requirements, i see no benefit. Then again, those kinds of decisions would be far above my pay grade

yes, i said that, mostly. Different enough its not that you didnt read what I said but I meant that with the driveline stuff. When in overdrive and then esp lockup, any driveline variances are exemplified and also under more load. GM says get ****** youre making it up in your mind.
They have changed PCM calibrations to increase the speeds because its usually more sensitve a certain speeds and hten also the PWM isnt a problem for car trans but they need a different approach for trucks esp for towing.I suspect car 4l60es were fine

Another way to reduce chuggle at those speeds/conditions is to reduce plug gap from .060 to .045 at least on tbi SBC the LS's had a iridium plug change that was .040 not the factory .060 for platinum

 

[bucket]

I never invested in the 4T60 tools, I have built a few and hated them. Just too many little parts and pieces. I’m not sure about boost valves on those units.

You can always tell if a engine has suffered from a misfire by the worn teeth on the clutch plates. The constant “fish bite” tug wears both the clutch and the part it’s splined to.

I have the ATSG books for both the 4L60 and 4L60E, along with the 4L60E interchange and update book. The update book is probably 200 pages and explains all the design changes and the reason for them, and what parts can be retrofitted to older models.

I was always told the PWM crap was developed because consumers didn’t like the abrupt feeling of the clutch engaging. To me, it seems that could have easily been fixed by PCM calibration. If your going fast enough, TCC feels just like another shift. Unless locking up the converter early helps meet the ever tightening fuel economy standards and emissions requirements, i see no benefit. Then again, those kinds of decisions would be far above my pay grade

A bit off-topic here but, do you ever mess with the 440-t4's?