84 6.2L C10 Brake Failure-Stumped

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Dad o'5

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I have an 84 C10 6.2L w/ stock Hydroboost setup that has no brake pressure at all. I have replaced the master cylinder, front lines, both calipers, combination valve, both wheel cylinders, and pressure bled the system. Bench bled the MC before installing. I get absolutely nothing when I press the pedal, won't even give me enough pressure to bleed the system. It is worth mentioning that the brake light came on the day before the brakes failed and went away after I replaced the combination valve. It has not leaked a drop of fluid from anywhere that I can find. I am stumped. Any suggestions/ideas would be much appreciated. This is my daily driver right now and I have visions of doing a stock restore down the road, so I don't my throwing a couple bucks at it if I need to. I am a reasonably competent mechanic and I've run down the troubleshooting chart from the factory manual.
 

bucket

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What's the pedal feel like? Does it hardly move?
 

clkelley

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Try flushing your power steering fluid, if you have not already done so.
 

Dad o'5

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Thanks for the tips, finally got around to putting some time into it. I started over at the beginning and removed the master cylinder. It became quickly apparent that it was leaking into the booster. I called the parts house and had it replaced under warranty, was able to drive the truck within minutes of installing the MC. I was very frustrated by this experience because the replacement MC's failed twice. Warranties are nice, but way too much hassle to get two bad out of the box. Third time's a charm, right?
 

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Thanks for the tips, finally got around to putting some time into it. I started over at the beginning and removed the master cylinder. It became quickly apparent that it was leaking into the booster. I called the parts house and had it replaced under warranty, was able to drive the truck within minutes of installing the MC. I was very frustrated by this experience because the replacement MC's failed twice. Warranties are nice, but way too much hassle to get two bad out of the box. Third time's a charm, right?

That happened to me before with my 89 K-1500. I went nuts trying to figure out why the reman MC would not work, here it was a bad one. I had to fight with the store but they exchanged it. :shitsweak:
 

chengny

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Just some basic info on the hydroboost system from GM - might help someone down the line:

The Hydro-Boost system, see Figs. 1 and 2, provides an additional cylinder in the brake system. This cylinder contains no brake fluid. The Hydro-Boost cylinder is hydraulically operated, by pressurized fluid from the power steering pump, providing power assist to operate a dual master cylinder brake system.
The booster is composed of two sections; the linkage section and the power section.
The booster is designed so that if a total absence of power assist occurs, the brakes can be applied manually, but somewhat greater pressure on the brake pedal is required.

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Complaints about power brake operation should be handled as if two separate systems exist. Check for faults in the regular brake system first. If it is okay, start looking over the power brake circuit. For a quick check of proper power unit operation, press the brake pedal firmly and then start the engine. The pedal should fall away slightly and less pressure should be needed to maintain the pedal in any position. On vacuum suspended power units, air will rush into the air intake when the brakes are applied.
Another check begins with removal of the stop light switch and installation of a pressure gauge. Take a reading with the engine off and the power unit not operating. Maintaining the same pedal height, start the engine and take another reading. There should be a substantial pressure increase in the second reading.
Pedal-free travel and total travel are critical. As a general rule, brakes should be adjusted or relined if the pedal is closer than 1-1/2 in. from the floor with the brakes applied. Free travel should be kept strictly to specifications.
Take a manifold vacuum reading if the power unit isn't giving enough assistance. Remember, though, that some of the new V-8s have less than 15 in. of vacuum at idle. If manifold vacuum is abnormally low, tune the engine and then try the power brakes again. Naturally, loose vacuum lines and clogged air-intake filters will cut down brake efficiency. Most units have a check valve that retains some vacuum in the system when the engine is off. A vacuum gauge check of this valve will tell you when it is restricted or stuck open or closed.
A simple check of the hydraulic system should be made before proceeding. Loosen the connection between the power unit and the wheel cylinder lines. If the brakes release, the trouble is in the power unit hydraulic circuit. If the brakes still will not release, look for a restricted brake line or similar difficulties in the regular hydraulic circuit.
A residual pressure check valve is usually included immediately under the brake line connection on hydraulic-assist power brakes. This valve maintains a slight hydraulic pressure on the brake lines and wheel cylinders to give better pedal response. If it is sticking, the brakes may not release.
Power brakes that have a hard pedal are usually suffering from a milder form of the same ills that cause complete power unit failure. Collapsed or leaking vacuum lines or insufficient manifold vacuum, as well as punctured diaphragms or bellows and leaky piston seals, all lead to weak power unit operation. A steady hiss when the brake is held down means a vacuum leak that will cause poor power unit operation.
Do not immediately condemn the power unit if the brakes grab. First look for all the usual causes, such as greasy linings or scored drums. Then investigate the power unit.

Regardless of whether the brakes are vacuum or hydraulically assisted, certain general service procedures apply. Only top quality, clean brake fluid should be used in power brakes. More seals and valves are used with power brake systems than with ordinary brakes, so an inferior brake fluid will do much more damage. For the same reason, be sure all dirt is kept out of the system. Additionally, on models with hydraulic assist brakes, care must be taken not to mix the fluids of the booster hydraulic system and brake hydraulic system as the fluids are not compatible.
The fact that brakes will operate even if the power unit fails gives us a clue to successful power brake service. This means the conventional brake system is left intact and a power unit is simply added to the existing system. Troubleshooting is then exactly the same until we get to the power unit. As with conventional hydraulic brakes, a spongy pedal with power brakes still means air in the system and grease on the linings will still make the brakes grab. Keep in mind, however, that power brakes give a higher line pressure, thus making leaks more critical.
Power units do not require adjustment. Either they work or they don't. If they don't, the various valves and connections are simply replaced. The only exception is that the power units themselves sometimes have an adjustable connection to the brake pedal or linkage.
 

Dad o'5

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@chengny-Thanks, I printed a copy and stuck it in the binder on my garage shelf. Good stuff!
 

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Speaking for the Auto repair Industry NEW only on MC..We would not install a reman unless the customer was willing to sign a waiver.The remans are a pain in the ass.We do things twice it costs money.
 

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Honestly, when it comes to brake parts, I'm not as critical as most because I know how the systems work, and I'm not bragging here, actually admitting my stupidity, I've driven a truck with NO BRAKES at all, NONE, ZERO, ZILCH for over 50 miles before to get it home, downshifting, timing stop lights, allowing tons and tons of room between other cars, and using a cable operated park brake to have at least a little something. 40 miles of the trip was freeway and at 10pm at night with little traffic. So with that said, I don't fear a MC or wheel cylinder going bad, and getting to my point. I won't buy Remanned brake parts if I can help it. I'll buy the kit and rebuild it myself because it's so cheap, it's worth the try and effort. If I don't like those results, like the bores are to pitted and didn't hone out, or I had to hone it to much to make it useable, then I prefer to just buy new. Reason being, that Remann shop probably just rebuilt what I wasn't willing to use myself, as in bored to much for a tight seal in the rubbers etc. There are some good builders though. They will hone or bore parts then use oversize rubbers and pistons. This too becomes a problem because next time someone like me who goes to rebuild it next time, and now you can't get those oversize parts that the good rebuilder used. So all in all, IMO, if you can't rebuild it yourself, then buy NEW. One of the most overlooked fluids in a vehicle is the brake system. Just like oil and trans fluid have there regular change intervals, so does brake fluid and very little to noone ever does it. Keeping your brake fluid clean does help your cylinders, whether it be Master Cylinders, wheel cylinders, Caliper piston cylinders, from rusting, pitting and getting dirty. On Squarebodies, it's a no brainer when it comes to wheel cylinders and calipers. Just buy new and be done.
Last thorough brake job I did was on an 80 GMC half ton. The wheel cylinder rebuild kits were $6 each. The NEW wheel cylinder was $11. DUH, for the $5 and the lifetime NEW Warranty, I chose to go NEW. I'd imagine they were probably from China to be that cheap, but nonetheless they were new, clean bores, and worked flawlessly for 2 years til I parted the truck.
 
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bobehud

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Tell it HotRod.Brake fluid in a humid area will absorb moisture causing it to corrode steel bore in the MC/WC etc ..huump i can not count the number of steel lines in my life i have repaired.

brake fluid will boil at a much lower temp with it contaminated by moisture.

Yep brake fluid is often overlooked until it causes failure somewhere in the system.
 

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I had a buddy do the front brakes on on of my K10's once because I was busy. He was a ase certified brake guy. Long story short he couldn't get no peddal on the truck after he replaced front brakes. He spent 3 days changing everything from booster, to front brake lines, and everything in between. Come to find out he put calipers on the wrong sides to where the bleeders were on the bottom. Dumb mistake , but they happen
 

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I had a buddy do the front brakes on on of my K10's once because I was busy. He was a ase certified brake guy. Long story short he couldn't get no peddal on the truck after he replaced front brakes. He spent 3 days changing everything from booster, to front brake lines, and everything in between. Come to find out he put calipers on the wrong sides to where the bleeders were on the bottom. Dumb mistake , but they happen

So he's now not only ASE Certified, he's ARSE Certified too. :roflbow:

Yes, even the best of us fugg up and have brain farts. Just the other day, I'll say Jims86 was helping a new member with a NO Spark TBI problem. I was pretty much started in too, but when realized it was TBI ESC, I'd follow along just see if I caught anything. I know something about ESC, but put TBI in with it, now I start slipping in the knowledge area. Went back and forth on this thread for a I think 3 days with getting power every where at all wires blah blah blah, then when we're about to say as a last resort, it has to be the ECM since everything else has already been replaced, some of twice and double checked like the coil and module, the user asks as if it's a long shot, "Should I replace the rotor cap, even though it looks just fine?" :crazy: After pages of discussions, diagrams, smart suggestions, dumb suggestions, and answering all his questions and telling him to go out and get pics of this and pics of that blah blah blah, Fuggin $3 Rotor Cap !!! BAMM !!! Fired right up.

I don't blame the newbie, but I damn sure blame myself for ASSUMING and not asking if the rotor cap had been replaced. EVERYTHING but the distributor itself had been replaced, so I assumed the rotor cap had been too. And I knew this could be the problem since I just dealt with it on a 94 about a month ago and some old man that don't even know how to check oil, knew what was wrong with his van. I thought he was crazy when he said, that button thing under the black thiing with all the wires.
 

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I got one that will even top that. My 89 V3500 crewcab has the tbi 454. It started loosing power right after I got it. Put the snap on brick on it and it said map sensor only code. replaced that and still no improvement. Run great till put under load. Checked compression it was good so I took cat off to find someone had done hollowed it out so that wasn't it. The master tech tells me the computer must be bad not reading the codes. put in new computer, distributer, cap rotor,wires, plugs,coil and still not fixed or any codes. checked fuel presure 8 lbs on both tanks. rebuilt the throttle body, new fuel flter still no luck. I took it to a local shop at that point and said just fix it. The shop owner calls me the next day and says it needs 2 fuel pumps, do I want to put them in or him. I went ahead and done that myself, and both the rubber hoses beween the pump and sending units were split. $.79 would fixed it from get go instead of the $1k I spent.
 

89Suburban

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...... both the rubber hoses beween the pump and sending units were split. $.79 would fixed it from get go instead of the $1k I spent.

Damn, I was on the phone with Jim's 86 over the weekend trying to diagnose my Burb and he said the same thing about the split lines. I only have one tank, and I had a new pump installed, about 2 years ago. Hopefully common sense prevailed and they replaced that line. Now I am going to be restless tonight, lol...

But, my computer is jacking up trying to spit out codes so I think I need to replace it... :sad72:
 

HotRodPC

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It happens. I'da caught that though before going to the shop. TBI needs more than 8lbs. Closer to 15lbs. At least you tried diagnosing it yourself before you took it to the shop. But the shop should have been able to say it was air leaks causing low fuel pressure instead of just saying it needed new fuel pumps. The tip me off there, would have been, what's the odds of both pumps going bad at the exact same time? And usually when an E fuel pump goes, it goes, it either works, or it doesn't which also would have led me to checking other things. That is where experience pays. Next time you have a similar problem, I bet I know what the first thing you'll check will be, or if you do a check and get a low fuel pressure from a working pump.
 

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