Clutch safety switch delete

Bextreme04 said:

It's not about fault. Accidents are almost never a single point. They are a chain of failures, mistakes, or oversights that all come together to have this bad outcome. In aircraft accident investigations they are often referred to as "Accident chains" and "finding the hole in the swiss cheese". In @SirRobyn0's story it was the final link in the chain. There had to be some other failure in there, but the final link that "should" have prevented the injury had been bypassed and was non-functional.

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Right, but if the person knew it was a manual trans, they obviously knew there was not a safety switch or they wouldn't have tried starting it without the clutch. If that's the case, a safety switch wouldn't have prevented anything.

Again, I'm not saying that a safety switch doesn't prevent injury or death, just that in this case, with the info provided, it seems it wouldn't have mattered.

bucket said:

Right, but if the person knew it was a manual trans, they obviously knew there was not a safety switch or they wouldn't have tried starting it without the clutch. If that's the case, a safety switch wouldn't have prevented anything.

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You are making assumptions about what someone "knew" and what the situation was. A safety switch would have stopped the engine from cranking while the vehicle was in gear and the clutch was not depressed. That would have 100% stopped the vehicle from lurching forward and crushing the guy regardless of what anyone knew.

Guy 1 is in front of truck working on something. He asks guys 2 to "start the truck". Guy 2 reaches in the open window and turns the key on to start the truck. Guy 2 might have no knowledge of the vehicle at all and is just following the instructions of Guy 1. Safety switch prevents the truck from trying to start(in this specific instance that matches the story as told by sirrobyn)

We are both making assumptions since neither of us were there or know every last detail.

I will tell you about our family on the job accident.This happened to us,but doesn't mean that anything necessarily will happen to any of you of course.
My cousin on his job,they had a rubber tired loader tractor that had a front tire flat.His supervisor asked him to start the tractor and lower the bucket down to raise the tires up to be repaired. He stepped in front of the large rear tire, and reached to turn the ignition switch. It started up with it in gear and it took off, running completely over him. And the tractor hit the wall of the building, and stopped. It was a closed casket funeral for a 29-year-old boy.
As many things as I've done in my life on the edge of safety,and common sense, we have looked at safety devices from a whole new perspective. If the switch on that tractor had worked properly it would not have happened. But if he had climbed up in the seat and started it,it would not have happened.
Accidents can strike so fast and unexpected, from some of the simplest things that we do each day. And they can have horrible consequences for the victims, and their families. And what I'm saying is, they ever vigilant as best you can. We have to live life and we're not guaranteed tomorrow.

Let me ask this then... is a non-functional safety switch any different than a failing part or owner neglect?

Back when I was in the shop, there was an Acura Integra that was in the shop for me to work on. I was not the person that pulled it into the shop either. I did the normal thing that most people do when starting a manual trans car. I pushed in the clutch, gave the shifter a good wiggle around to ensure it was in neutral and then I started the car. Then I let off the clutch (so I could exit the car) and the car suddenly lurched forward and the driver seat fell backwards and I couldn't reach the pedals to stop the car. I did manage to yank on the e-brake handle that thankfully worked. But the car had went forward a good amount and came to a stop as it was scooting my co-worker's toolbox across the floor. I was very lucky that nobody was standing in front of the car.

As it turned out, the shifter bushings were incredibly worn out (way more than your normal sloppy shifter) which made it feel like neutral when in gear and the owner had changed the front seat, but not bother to bolt it down. If someone were to have been injured or killed, what would have been the cause? Me? The toasted shifter bushings, or the missing seat bolts? Keep in mind that seat bolts are a fairly important safety item as well. Im betting that I would have been considered the cause.

bucket said:

Let me ask this then... is a non-functional safety switch any different than a failing part or owner neglect?

Back when I was in the shop, there was an Acura Integra that was in the shop for me to work on. I was not the person that pulled it into the shop either. I did the normal thing that most people do when starting a manual trans car. I pushed in the clutch, gave the shifter a good wiggle around to ensure it was in neutral and then I started the car. Then I let off the clutch (so I could exit the car) and the car suddenly lurched forward and the driver seat fell backwards and I couldn't reach the pedals to stop the car. I did manage to yank on the e-brake handle that thankfully worked. But the car had went forward a good amount and came to a stop as it was scooting my co-worker's toolbox across the floor. I was very lucky that nobody was standing in front of the car.

As it turned out, the shifter bushings were incredibly worn out (way more than your normal sloppy shifter) which made it feel like neutral when in gear and the owner had changed the front seat, but not bother to bolt it down. If someone were to have been injured or killed, what would have been the cause? Me? The toasted shifter bushings, or the missing seat bolts? Keep in mind that seat bolts are a fairly important safety item as well. Im betting that I would have been considered the cause.

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In court the car would have been deemed neglected,and unroadworthy.The owner would be at fault/ charged.

I think lmc has a replacement

Octane said:

In court the car would have been deemed neglected,and unroadworthy.The owner would be at fault/ charged.

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Unless of course the repair facility was made aware of the situation prior to taking custody or control of the vehicle.

I’ve dealt with CCC issues similar to this in the recent past. A large tire retailer took a customer’s car in for some work. The car in question was a “modified” civic. The PO of the civic had installed a remote start that circumvented the CSS. The current owner allegedly notified the repair facility of the issue and told them not to use the remote start feature.

Long story short, the young guy at the shop was instructed to bring the car into a bay. He walked out with the keys and hit the remote start with the car in gear. That car hit one of my vehicles while parked and empty in a shared lot—my wife was next door at the gym. Minor damage, but the civic’s insurance would not cover it because their insured driver was not operating the vehicle. The repair facility insisted they were not liable and wouldn’t pay.

Took a demand letter to get our money back plus some for our troubles.

@Disco , no I don’t think you’re making your truck inherently more hazardous, given your use and situation.
Don’t tell anyone but I have a Jeep with no CSS and a mower with a disabled deadman switch on the seat. I’m not bragging, just stating, you are not the only one “living on the edge.” My kids also drive and operate these. And both have been instructed appropriately.
Sure, when I was a kid, I used to run dads power saw with no chain brake either. ( Not disabled, just not invented yet). We cut ALOT of wood with that saw. A buddy’s dad bought a new saw from a department store. First time out of the box, he damn near cut his leg off with it. Sued the department store….
Point is, yes as technology advances, so do safety devices and requirements. And to that end, most every or every one of them is a result of something like I wrote above. Safety devices are to protect everyone but more so they are extremely valuable to those who are untrained, mis-judge or just the lowest common denominator in the IQ pool.
We do things that could kill us every day. Everyone of us.
But being in, and managing heavy construction work for many years has taught me volumes about safety. And seen many horrific incidents. A few deemed essentially unpreventable. But most are/were preventable. And some very easily preventable.
In general one can’t judge how smart or qualified someone is by just looking at them. Training is a great step, but sometimes “you can’t fix stupid” happens in a preventable incident.
Hell, hired a new foreman. A transfer from another division of the company. 13 year employee. He was immediately seen as unqualified but we were desparAte and kept him on for a few days. Any help is better than none, right?
Yes until said employee magically explodes a 375lb rated ladder just standing on it motionless observing the work taking place. Same ladder that had been used probably 10x that day alone with guys 100lbs more than him on it.
That one is suspicious and a mystery and possibly nefarious. But, safety…..

Ladder was not tied off at the top. As is a rule for access ladders. Whatever caused this dipchit to experience a recordable injury on my project, and as ridiculous as this situation was, was 100% preventable.

Totally off topic, and I still have no issue with you disabling YOUR CSS. Not a uge risk.

bucket said:

But how is this the fault of the clutch switch? Why was the vehicle being started without pushing in the clutch? I'm assuming that the operator assumed it was in neutral and just wanted to crank it over? If that is the case, they were aware that there was not a functional clutch safety switch. Also, even if there was an operational switch and they pushed in the clutch, since they thought it was in neutral, if they started it then the vehicle would have lurched forward anyway when they let up on the clutch.

There may be more details, but at the moment to someone that was not there, it certainly seems like the operator was 100% at fault. For either not checking to be sure it was in neutral, or not paying attention and thinking the vehicle had an auto trans.

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Bextreme04 said:

It's not about fault. Accidents are almost never a single point. They are a chain of failures, mistakes, or oversights that all come together to have this bad outcome. In aircraft accident investigations they are often referred to as "Accident chains" and "finding the hole in the swiss cheese". In @SirRobyn0's story it was the final link in the chain. There had to be some other failure in there, but the final link that "should" have prevented the injury had been bypassed and was non-functional.

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What Eric said is exactly right. In this case the truck was in for a no start the mechanic was bent over with a test light in hand and one of the tire guys was inside the truck. His foot slipped of the clutch while cranking and of course the truck starts up.

But think about a lot of safety devices, seat belts, ABS. For a made up example Someone with a bad seat belt ratchet and having ABS that hasn't functioned in year, and gets ejected during a car accident and killed, well was it the ABS's fault well no not specifically, was it the seat belts fault, well no not specifically, was it the drivers fault, I think we'd all say yes it is, but if even one of the safety devices was in place and functioning the result would have been at dude at the wheel surviving.

We are all human and it only takes a split second to make a mistake that has a terrible outcome. In the OPs case he already pushes his clutch in when cranking so it's not like the clutch switch is causing him in undo difficulties on a daily basis.

Bextreme04 said:

Guy 1 is in front of truck working on something. He asks guys 2 to "start the truck". Guy 2 reaches in the open window and turns the key on to start the truck. Guy 2 might have no knowledge of the vehicle at all and is just following the instructions of Guy 1. Safety switch prevents the truck from trying to start(in this specific instance that matches the story as told by sirrobyn)

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Agreed. And to my point. Guy number 2 was very likely another mechanic in that shop and didn’t think/know enough to even understand basic automotive operation….

Thank God I found this thread. I have a ‘59 MGA that doesn’t have a neutral safety switch. Never did. My dad drove it for thirty years and I’ve had it for thirty-three more, somehow without it killing us. Well, I’m no longer taking any chances, I’m going to haul that death machine out in the yard and set it on fire. And just to be extree safe, I’ll push the Suburban into the flames as well because it’s got 6x9 speakers in the doors. (Don’t know what’s bad about that, but I read it on the interwebs so it must be true.) Thank you GMSB, I’ll sleep better tonight knowing y’all are watching out for me.