I think I just got screwed. Advice?

idahovette said:

Ya know sometimes parents do stuff for their kids just because they can. They didn't go out looking for the best deal, they took it to someone they trusted and to do something for their "little boy". I think you are lucky to have them still want to help you and able to do it , so look at it as a time saver ,money saver win for you and just say "thanks folks"

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Ya know what your right. Amen!

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Count your blessings. It's something you don't have to do now, and now you can concentrate on something different. And as other's have said, be grateful. You came out ahead, and they care enough about you and/or your safety, or the safety of others out on the road to have it done for you. They sound like good people, enjoy them and respect them while they're still around, not all kids have parents like that.

I'm going to make some enemies here, but I just love all the people who have never had to make payroll judging how a repair business should be run. Get out your ballpoint, flip that napkin over on the bar and figure out how the shop owner is pocketing $60 an hour because he pays his tech $20. You know, 'cause there's no such thing as payroll taxes, comp, property taxes, utilities, building maintenance, insurance, equipment and training investment, warranty etc. Nah, it's all just gold for the crook running the show.

All I can say is if you know so much, why don't you go out and do it yourself and become a bazillionaire tonight?

Without naming names, (and this isn't intended to be aimed at specific people, but rather to address common sentiments that have been expressed here and in general about the industry) there's a couple of issues I need to address. Chain stores don't discount to trade. At least not around here. I've tried, I have a tax ID and I'm running a repair business. I've asked and basically been told no discounts, just some weird points program and some vague warranty consideration. Independents usually have a pricing hierarchy that gives the trade some leverage, but they have to compete with the chains too so it tends to be kind of thin, but at least they acknowledge it.

You can bring your own parts to a repair shop if you feel like any markup is a ripoff. Although again, I'd like to see how it goes if somebody shows up at a restaurant with a raw steak. They will probably install them for you and just charge for the labor. But I have a feeling you'd like a warranty, wouldn't you? If you bring your own parts to my shop and they fail, the labor is all on you. Please, please go back to O'Riley/Pep/Rock/ebay/whatever and submit the claim. I want to see how that works out, or if you're willing to put in the effort when you were too cheap to pay a markup in the first place.

It's one thing to question if a markup is excessive when you have facts about what actually went in to the job. I get that there are bad actors in every profession, including yours, but you don't want to be painted with that brush any more than a doctor or a lawyer or a mechanic or whatever profession you're in. But it's entirely another to speculate on what a shop paid for parts and determine that you've been robbed if you didn't get those parts at cost. Again, do it in your driveway with no overhead other than the cost of parts and tools. Save yourself the money. The repair industry thanks you.

And probably required he has his own tools, so they're not even supplying the tools

Blue Ox said:

I'm going to make some enemies here, but I just love all the people who have never had to make payroll judging how a repair business should be run. Get out your ballpoint, flip that napkin over on the bar and figure out how the shop owner is pocketing $60 an hour because he pays his tech $20. You know, 'cause there's no such thing as payroll taxes, comp, property taxes, utilities, building maintenance, insurance, equipment and training investment, warranty etc. Nah, it's all just gold for the crook running the show.

All I can say is if you know so much, why don't you go out and do it yourself and become a bazillionaire tonight?

Without naming names, (and this isn't intended to be aimed at specific people, but rather to address common sentiments that have been expressed here and in general about the industry) there's a couple of issues I need to address. Chain stores don't discount to trade. At least not around here. I've tried, I have a tax ID and I'm running a repair business. I've asked and basically been told no discounts, just some weird points program and some vague warranty consideration. Independents usually have a pricing hierarchy that gives the trade some leverage, but they have to compete with the chains too so it tends to be kind of thin, but at least they acknowledge it.

You can bring your own parts to a repair shop if you feel like any markup is a ripoff. Although again, I'd like to see how it goes if somebody shows up at a restaurant with a raw steak. They will probably install them for you and just charge for the labor. But I have a feeling you'd like a warranty, wouldn't you? If you bring your own parts to my shop and they fail, the labor is all on you. Please, please go back to O'Riley/Pep/Rock/ebay/whatever and submit the claim. I want to see how that works out, or if you're willing to put in the effort when you were too cheap to pay a markup in the first place.

It's one thing to question if a markup is excessive when you have facts about what actually went in to the job. I get that there are bad actors in every profession, including yours, but you don't want to be painted with that brush any more than a doctor or a lawyer or a mechanic or whatever profession you're in. But it's entirely another to speculate on what a shop paid for parts and determine that you've been robbed if you didn't get those parts at cost. Again, do it in your driveway with no overhead other than the cost of parts and tools. Save yourself the money. The repair industry thanks you.

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In my experience in this area, there's really no discount from the chain stores either. When you are buying most of your parts from one or two stores, they might be able to knock the cost down some, but normally the discounts are minimal. Now OE dealers on the other hand, that's a different story. Some are willing to give good discounts, but others are not. GM dealers were good about that, as some would sell us parts for 10% over cost. In those cases, my boss would usually charge list price to the customer.

Television hasn't helped the industry lately either. A lot of people probably picture most garages having an office upstairs with Richard Rawlings in it, lol.

Right. OE dealers will give trade discounts. They're usually pretty good that way.

Oh, except Caterpillar. They do things their own way.

Derek and Andy ,thanks for the words. You guys and anyone else running a shop know too well the "excitement of being management". Andy you are right about the dealership with the discounts . The Fored and GM dealers all gave me a fair shake, so I tried to do as much business as I could with them.

We are just starting out with my shop so that could be part of it, but none of the chain stores are giving me much of a discount at all an the amount varies based on what it is I'm buying. They keep saying it will get better the more I buy but I cant afford to buy from them an stay competitive. I have a few customers that dont seem to mind but most want the cheapest price possible so I wind up mail ordering most of the replacement parts we use.

I almost want to stop installing customer supplied parts because everytime I take one of those jobs it bites me in one way or another. The parts are either wrong, incomplete or cheap quality. Then I'm stuck with a disassembled vehicle on my lift waiting on the customer to rectify his parts issues an it throws off my entire schedule.

I take a lot of pride in what I do an I like to try an give people the best value for there money because I understand how expensive vehicle repairs are. I hate using the cheapest parts because the value isnt there to me. All i can do is make the suggestion though....

I would not have replaced the factory control arms unless they were damaged. The best bet would have been to replace the ball joints and control arm bushings, although that work is very labor intensive. But that's water under the bridge.

Even Moog's R-series control arms (which may be what the shop used) are probably made in China, and the ball joints are not the typical Moog part. The R-series upper control arms with ball joints cost $63 each at RockAuto, probably 50% more at a local parts store. At those prices, you can't expect much in the way of quality.

However, I still think the "real" Moog ball joints and other suspension and steering parts are the best in the replacement parts business, regardless of where they are made. As I recall, the Moog ball joints I used on my truck were made in France.

A major difference is the rubber grease boot. The cheapies, which typically use Moog P/Ns, may start cracking within a year or so (if not in the box), whereas real Moogs will still hold grease after 10-20 years. Also, the Moog joints will be super tight when new, whereas the studs in the cheapies will be easier to move around, and may actually make a popping or creaking sound after a few years or less. Been there, done that with off-brand parts -- creaking ball joints with cracked rubber boots as well as tie rod ends that wouldn't accept grease. Never again.

And about Moog's parent company Federal Mogul: Other brands under their umbrella are Sealed Power, Speed-Pro, Fel-Pro, Wagner, and more. I still trust and use those brands a lot, as do engine builders and reputable shops. In fact, my truck's 355 engine is full of those name brand parts, and my brake pads and shoes are Wagner. Sadly, my local O'Reilly Auto Parts store no longer sells Wagner brake parts, so I now buy from Rock Auto.

Good points from all here.
I'm more than willing to pay for quality parts as long as I know they're quality parts. The problem is that quality parts seem to be getting harder to find.

I'd like to add my $.02 as long as we're at it.

From a consumer perspective I can give an example of how people routinely get it up the ass.
I had an F150 that had tranny issues on warranty w/32k miles. Hard shifts from 2nd to 3rd. Dealer fixed it saying the valve body needed cleaning.
At 44k miles the tranny **** the bed and cost me $2400 to rebuild. Dealer gave me a break because it was just out of warranty. How nice of him.....
At 105k miles it started shifting hard again from 2nd to 3rd. First dealer quoted me $3400 to R&R with a rebuilt unit. Second dealer quoted me $2700 for same R&R.
Both refused to look at the valve body as detailed in their national repair database because it was now over 100k miles.
After getting totally pissed I went home, put the truck up on the ramps, dropped the pan, filter and valve body only to find a broken clip and bent spring inside the valve body. Took the clip and spring to AAMCO who found replacements in a spare parts bin (Service manager didn't charge me anything for them). Took them home, put it all together.
New filter and fluid cost me a total of $75 and runs perfect fours years and 40k miles later.

From a business owners perspective....
My in-laws owned a small service station/jobber business for decades. They delivered gas and fuel oil to farmers around the county and had the full service station.
You old guys would remember the type.... Full service pumps were labeled Regular and Ethyl. I helped them out on weekends and worked the pumps. Checked the oil, the air in the tires, cleaned the windshields, took their money and made change and the customer never had to get out of their vehicle. The good old days.
I also helped their mechanic with repairs so I fully understand the costs involved with parts, overhead, wages, taxes, etc. just to try and keep the lights on.
Big business and the Gov't finally drove them out of business when they couldn't afford to keep up with technology and the requirements needed to maintain that technology.

So from a purely unbiased opinion, I understand and agree with both arguments. Also why I won't ever own a new vehicle again and I fix them all myself. If theres something I can't do myself, which does occasionally happen I find the nearest small shop I can trust enough after enough semi-educated questions makes me feel comfortable enough to give them my vehicle.

bluex said:

We are just starting out with my shop so that could be part of it, but none of the chain stores are giving me much of a discount at all an the amount varies based on what it is I'm buying. They keep saying it will get better the more I buy but I cant afford to buy from them an stay competitive. I have a few customers that dont seem to mind but most want the cheapest price possible so I wind up mail ordering most of the replacement parts we use.

I almost want to stop installing customer supplied parts because everytime I take one of those jobs it bites me in one way or another. The parts are either wrong, incomplete or cheap quality. Then I'm stuck with a disassembled vehicle on my lift waiting on the customer to rectify his parts issues an it throws off my entire schedule.

I take a lot of pride in what I do an I like to try an give people the best value for there money because I understand how expensive vehicle repairs are. I hate using the cheapest parts because the value isnt there to me. All i can do is make the suggestion though....

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Wow I'm surprised you let your customers even bring their own parts. I've always been under the impression you should never ask a mechanic to put on the parts you bought because they won't be able to guarantee the parts won't fail.

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thecantaloupeman said:

Wow I'm surprised you let your customers even bring their own parts. I've always been under the impression you should never ask a mechanic to put on the parts you bought because they won't be able to guarantee the parts won't fail.

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An thats the thing, when you bring your own parts they get installed an that's it. If it fails then you get to pay to have it replaced again. The only thing I guarantee is I didnt tear it or anything else up when I installed it. After that it's all yours...

I learned a long time ago that I wanted to cater my business to people with money who wanted the best they could get. There’s no quibbling over nickels, I just do the jobs and charge a fair price for it. I won’t install anything a homeowner supplies and I don’t let them tell me how to do my job. I’m the professional and I’m the guy who has to warranty stuff so if it’s not done my way I prefer not to do it.

I’d say if you have people bring parts to your shop to put on their cars it’s time to get better customers. Also, don’t be afraid to tell people no, you’re not going to work on their junk.

The other thing to consider in business is the perception by the public. If you have nice cars sitting around your shop you’ll get a reputation as the place to take nice cars. Junk cars have the opposite effect.

MikeB said:

I would not have replaced the factory control arms unless they were damaged. The best bet would have been to replace the ball joints and control arm bushings, although that work is very labor intensive. But that's water under the bridge.

Even Moog's R-series control arms (which may be what the shop used) are probably made in China, and the ball joints are not the typical Moog part. The R-series upper control arms with ball joints cost $63 each at RockAuto, probably 50% more at a local parts store. At those prices, you can't expect much in the way of quality.

However, I still think the "real" Moog ball joints and other suspension and steering parts are the best in the replacement parts business, regardless of where they are made. As I recall, the Moog ball joints I used on my truck were made in France.

A major difference is the rubber grease boot. The cheapies, which typically use Moog P/Ns, may start cracking within a year or so (if not in the box), whereas real Moogs will still hold grease after 10-20 years. Also, the Moog joints will be super tight when new, whereas the studs in the cheapies will be easier to move around, and may actually make a popping or creaking sound after a few years or less. Been there, done that with off-brand parts -- creaking ball joints with cracked rubber boots as well as tie rod ends that wouldn't accept grease. Never again.

And about Moog's parent company Federal Mogul: Other brands under their umbrella are Sealed Power, Speed-Pro, Fel-Pro, Wagner, and more. I still trust and use those brands a lot, as do engine builders and reputable shops. In fact, my truck's 355 engine is full of those name brand parts, and my brake pads and shoes are Wagner. Sadly, my local O'Reilly Auto Parts store no longer sells Wagner brake parts, so I now buy from Rock Auto.

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Well that's what bothers me a bit. We asked the shop about it when they took a look at that extra loose nut, and they claimed the parts were "similar quality to Moog". I dunno if they just said that because it's greasable or what, but I feel like they lied to me. Unless they know something I don't about precision parts vs Moog parts. But I just don't feel like we should trust them anymore. I definitely am thankful my parents had it done for me because now I can drive it and not worry about it for a while, but it's more of just the fact that I am wondering if my parents should continue getting their car fixed there (or me for that matter). You know? I mean they do guarantee the part for 3 years or 36,000 miles so I have no idea if that's a good warranty or not, but I'm curious if they used Moog parts, would the warranty have been the same or would they have said it was a lifetime.

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MikeB said:

I would not have replaced the factory control arms unless they were damaged. The best bet would have been to replace the ball joints and control arm bushings, although that work is very labor intensive. But that's water under the bridge.

Even Moog's R-series control arms (which may be what the shop used) are probably made in China, and the ball joints are not the typical Moog part. The R-series upper control arms with ball joints cost $63 each at RockAuto, probably 50% more at a local parts store. At those prices, you can't expect much in the way of quality.

However, I still think the "real" Moog ball joints and other suspension and steering parts are the best in the replacement parts business, regardless of where they are made. As I recall, the Moog ball joints I used on my truck were made in France.

A major difference is the rubber grease boot. The cheapies, which typically use Moog P/Ns, may start cracking within a year or so (if not in the box), whereas real Moogs will still hold grease after 10-20 years. Also, the Moog joints will be super tight when new, whereas the studs in the cheapies will be easier to move around, and may actually make a popping or creaking sound after a few years or less. Been there, done that with off-brand parts -- creaking ball joints with cracked rubber boots as well as tie rod ends that wouldn't accept grease. Never again.

And about Moog's parent company Federal Mogul: Other brands under their umbrella are Sealed Power, Speed-Pro, Fel-Pro, Wagner, and more. I still trust and use those brands a lot, as do engine builders and reputable shops. In fact, my truck's 355 engine is full of those name brand parts, and my brake pads and shoes are Wagner. Sadly, my local O'Reilly Auto Parts store no longer sells Wagner brake parts, so I now buy from Rock Auto.

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It's funny you mention the grease boots. That's my biggest pet peeve about moog. The fact that they stopped using retainers to seal the boot to the part. Yeah, I know that all you need to do is add a couple squirts of grease to it at regular intervals, but if the factory, that pinches every penny they can when building something seals the boot to the joint with a retainer, then the aftermarket should be able to offer the same thing.
Few things piss me off as much as having to clean grease off of the inside of the wheels or pavement after it oozes out of their cheap ass boots the first time you turn the wheel.

The other reason I don't trust their quality, comes from one of the guys I worked with at the dealership for several years. After he left, he opened his own brake and front-end shop. Nothing but steering, suspension, and brakes. He's had the parts store deliver moog parts to him with the same part number, in different boxes, manufactured with different materials, (components where different colored, obviously different metal) and in the case of tie rod ends, had different length threaded tails on them. That doesn't speak well for their quality control. I would have to talk to him to find out what brand he prefers, as I can't recall what he said the last time it came up. But, whatever brand, I know he's not using something that's a pos, as it's his shop, because even if the part does have a warranty, comebacks are not a good thing. Like the line from 'Tommy Boy" "if all you want is a warranty, I can **** in a box and put a warranty on it, I've got time."



tldr...not a fan of moog. If oem parts aren't available, I'll do a LOT of research to find one that is of better quality before I buy a brand name who's quality went away decades ago.