700r4 getting hot.

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4WDKC

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@4WDKC I could hope Its a nicer and built up trans. But my luck lately its probably something someone got from a junk yard many moons ago and slapped it in there halfway without getting the necessary parts to make it work right. Thinking about it a bit. I do remember there being a metal case over my driver side valve cover that has a bunch or wires going to it (think its zip tied to my window wash fluid line) would this be the ECM? I don't recall seeing a vacuum switch but I could have easily missed it.

If the TCC control switch be it ECM or vacuum is faulty can these parts still be purchased new? I don't think a junk yard part would be ideal for something like this.

it could have just been a stock trans that was rebuilt for towing. what year truck, what carb, efi?,
 

4WDKC

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Dutch Rutter

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it could have just been a stock trans that was rebuilt for towing. what year truck, what carb, efi?,

It an 83, k20, with a Edelbrock 1406. Glove box tag says its a camper special, originally came with an overdrive trans, semi float rear with 3:73s and a G80.
Kind of a odd ball truck from what I've heard as the 700r4 wasen't put into a lot of 3/4 ton trucks. It also has factory AC, Tilt, power windows and locks so it came pretty well equipped.
 

Dutch Rutter

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Id recommend spending the extra money and getting this, it allows you to set it like you want it instead of how gm intended it for lugging an engine.

http://www.jegs.com/i/TCI/890/37660...fNZqz4sB2DLHRJfP-T3DllpGXZYLUDQBoC8MgQAvD_BwE

Thats a lot better! best part it would give me everything I would need to get this working right all in a full kit. Price it whatever at this point. Since If I cant get it figured out, Im going to be forced with a decision of selling the truck, which I really don't want to do, or taking it to a shop to be worked on which I can just imagine getting expensive quickly.
 

4WDKC

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It an 83, k20, with a Edelbrock 1406. Glove box tag says its a camper special, originally came with an overdrive trans, semi float rear with 3:73s and a G80.
Kind of a odd ball truck from what I've heard as the 700r4 wasen't put into a lot of 3/4 ton trucks. It also has factory AC, Tilt, power windows and locks so it came pretty well equipped.

the carb may be part of the problem, that truck may have ahad a feed back carb that worked with an ecm/vacuum switch and if its not all working together it may not allow lock up. That kit I listed is a better solution I think, there was another that allowed you to determine it by speed also but it was twice the price of the one I listed.
 

Dutch Rutter

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the carb may be part of the problem, that truck may have ahad a feed back carb that worked with an ecm/vacuum switch and if its not all working together it may not allow lock up. That kit I listed is a better solution I think, there was another that allowed you to determine it by speed also but it was twice the price of the one I listed.

I see. Is there anyway to tell it it came with a feed back carb? The more I think about it the more I like that kit. Putting that in will be my end result even if I can get working at least for the time being while I wait for shipping.
 

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82 should be vacuum switch controlled. You might just go ahead with a new control set up. It is also possible as mentioned before that it is wired internally to turn on with 4th gear engagement, but the kit would fix that
 

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the ones pictured for the truck from rock auto dont have an connectors to work with an ecm so it might not have had one. Till you get the kit dont use overdrive, the transmission will stay cooler.
You can trace the wires from the trans up the truck to see where they run, that may help you find the problem.
 

Dutch Rutter

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the ones pictured for the truck from rock auto dont have an connectors to work with an ecm so it might not have had one. Till you get the kit dont use overdrive, the transmission will stay cooler.
You can trace the wires from the trans up the truck to see where they run, that may help you find the problem.

Going to try this tonight after work. Don't give a damn if its pitch black outside, I'll pull out my drop lite. Struggles of not having a heated garage :(
I can take one of two ways to and from work. One takes me on the interstate for 25 minutes at 60-65 mph zones with one steeper hill. the other take a bit longer but goes through town which would be max 55 mph I think the slower speed would be easier on the trans in 3/D instead of OD I can live with getting up a bit earlier until I get this locking up.

I think you guys are right, If i'm in there trying to fix this anyway I might as well spend a little more money and time and make it better while I'm at it.
 

4WDKC

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Going to try this tonight after work. Don't give a damn if its pitch black outside, I'll pull out my drop lite. Struggles of not having a heated garage :(
I can take one of two ways to and from work. One takes me on the interstate for 25 minutes at 60-65 mph zones with one steeper hill. the other take a bit longer but goes through town which would be max 55 mph I think the slower speed would be easier on the trans in 3/D instead of OD I can live with getting up a bit earlier until I get this locking up.

I think you guys are right, If i'm in there trying to fix this anyway I might as well spend a little more money and time and make it better while I'm at it.


IIRC when you use OD the transmission doesnt pump fluid to the cooler to help reduce power loss and increase mileage. This make me believe D is better than OD no lockup for your trip to work whether its interstate or side roads.

If you do find the vacuum switch, run wires and toggle switch to use till the kit comes in so you can have OD.
 

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Hi Dutch Rutter,
Jon here in the UK. I rebuild classic American transmissions for a living here. I specialise in 700R4's. Everyone is trying their best to help with advise but there is a mix of truth and untruth being batted around. This could lead to money and time being wasted so I thought I would chip in with what I know as fact here.

Fact 1. The 700R4 is plagued with slipping issues over time and high wear and tear internally. Its a medium duty trans with issues from new. The age of your transmission is ripe for a full rebuild. Seals are hardening with age, clutches are tired. It is highly likely to be slipping on both the 2/4 band and third gear clutches. I have never taken one apart that has not had a burnt 3rd and burnt band and something else worn or broken. All this generates excess heat. It is very logical that when you changed the fluid for fresh when you did the oil leak - that caused it to play up. Why? Because the dirty old fluid was 'grippy' the new fluid is clean and slippy. If you have something that is hanging on by the skin of its teeth, making it slippy kills it. I have had this many times from customers who say 'I changed the fluid but now it doesnt work at all' The dirty fluid you saw again was because the converter holds about 4 quarts and its very difficult to totally drain. This half fresh and half old mixes again when you restart making it look shagged.

Fact 2. The lockup clutch in the converter is just a paper lined plate. It too fails just like the other clutches, thats why when overhauling you should replace it with a recon, preferably carbon. This large single clutch tries to lock up but cant, its metal to metal causing huge amounts of heat. I have seen evidence of raging infernoes of friction welded particles come out of the pump area of faulty converters. Converters are the main cause of why trans gets hot. its the way fluid transmits power. Its utter garbage that having the lockup not connected will cause overheating. Both the th350 and th400 dont have lock up, they happily slip all day long so why would a 700 not be happy. The clutch is there for Economy purposes to increase efficiency, not reduce heat. Slight heat reduction will occur as a bonus but not as the primary need.

Fact 3 Lockup control is a series of events that MUST all take place in order to get lockup. GM built into the circuit many safety features to ensure both you and the transmission dont get harmed. The lockup clutch isnt a performance device so must be backed out under hard throttle conditions to protect it. That is the purpose of the vacuum device - it measures engine load.

The brake switch disconnects it to back out lockup if you need to hit the brakes. With lockup enabled you have full mechanical connection between engine and Trans like having the clutch pedal up in a stick shift car, its dangerous if you cant stop. You dont want to be hunting for a toggle switch as you run that old lady down.

Inside the transmission is usually a thermal device - it prevents lockup from operating until the fluid is hot enough. This is a bad component that fails all the time and is recommended to be bypassed completely in all good rebuild manuals. Along with that you have a control valve in the pump body, the lock up solenoid itself and a pressure switch on the 4th gear oil circuit. So the lockup works only like this:-
Hot fluid - cruising throttle - in 4th gear - no foot on brake - assuming all components are funtioning OK and all the wiring is sound. All this can be retro ripped out and just done with a toggle switch but bear all I said in mind. Some models had further lockup in 3rd as well but all controlled via the ECU.

I hope this helps - I totally recommend you excersise caution in what you further spend on it. Recon converters can be had for just $109 and rebuild kits for not much more. Tear it down and fix it properly all the parts are on your doorstep in the USA, I have to wait 2 weeks for everything and it costs me double.
Jon
 

4WDKC

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Hi Dutch Rutter,
Jon here in the UK. I rebuild classic American transmissions for a living here. I specialise in 700R4's. Everyone is trying their best to help with advise but there is a mix of truth and untruth being batted around. This could lead to money and time being wasted so I thought I would chip in with what I know as fact here.

Fact 1. The 700R4 is plagued with slipping issues over time and high wear and tear internally. Its a medium duty trans with issues from new. The age of your transmission is ripe for a full rebuild. Seals are hardening with age, clutches are tired. It is highly likely to be slipping on both the 2/4 band and third gear clutches. I have never taken one apart that has not had a burnt 3rd and burnt band and something else worn or broken. All this generates excess heat. It is very logical that when you changed the fluid for fresh when you did the oil leak - that caused it to play up. Why? Because the dirty old fluid was 'grippy' the new fluid is clean and slippy. If you have something that is hanging on by the skin of its teeth, making it slippy kills it. I have had this many times from customers who say 'I changed the fluid but now it doesnt work at all' The dirty fluid you saw again was because the converter holds about 4 quarts and its very difficult to totally drain. This half fresh and half old mixes again when you restart making it look shagged.

Fact 2. The lockup clutch in the converter is just a paper lined plate. It too fails just like the other clutches, thats why when overhauling you should replace it with a recon, preferably carbon. This large single clutch tries to lock up but cant, its metal to metal causing huge amounts of heat. I have seen evidence of raging infernoes of friction welded particles come out of the pump area of faulty converters. Converters are the main cause of why trans gets hot. its the way fluid transmits power. Its utter garbage that having the lockup not connected will cause overheating. Both the th350 and th400 dont have lock up, they happily slip all day long so why would a 700 not be happy. The clutch is there for Economy purposes to increase efficiency, not reduce heat. Slight heat reduction will occur as a bonus but not as the primary need.

Fact 3 Lockup control is a series of events that MUST all take place in order to get lockup. GM built into the circuit many safety features to ensure both you and the transmission dont get harmed. The lockup clutch isnt a performance device so must be backed out under hard throttle conditions to protect it. That is the purpose of the vacuum device - it measures engine load.

The brake switch disconnects it to back out lockup if you need to hit the brakes. With lockup enabled you have full mechanical connection between engine and Trans like having the clutch pedal up in a stick shift car, its dangerous if you cant stop. You dont want to be hunting for a toggle switch as you run that old lady down.

Inside the transmission is usually a thermal device - it prevents lockup from operating until the fluid is hot enough. This is a bad component that fails all the time and is recommended to be bypassed completely in all good rebuild manuals. Along with that you have a control valve in the pump body, the lock up solenoid itself and a pressure switch on the 4th gear oil circuit. So the lockup works only like this:-
Hot fluid - cruising throttle - in 4th gear - no foot on brake - assuming all components are funtioning OK and all the wiring is sound. All this can be retro ripped out and just done with a toggle switch but bear all I said in mind. Some models had further lockup in 3rd as well but all controlled via the ECU.

I hope this helps - I totally recommend you excersise caution in what you further spend on it. Recon converters can be had for just $109 and rebuild kits for not much more. Tear it down and fix it properly all the parts are on your doorstep in the USA, I have to wait 2 weeks for everything and it costs me double.
Jon


I have a question, if I am remembering correctly and the pump is disengaged when in overdrive then wouldnt the converter slipping cause excessive heat like he is seeing? The TH350 and 400 dont have this issue because the pump is always engaged right?
 

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Careful now I may take you up on that.

And that's cool. You are the closest member to me. We can screw around with the trucks, and drink some beer sometime. I'll even lock my chick up in the basement. She's used to it now.....
 

Dutch Rutter

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And that's cool. You are the closest member to me. We can screw around with the trucks, and drink some beer sometime. I'll even lock my chick up in the basement. She's used to it now.....

I do have this coming Monday off work. If I cant get this figured out or run into trouble we'll need to work that out, I think I could order that kit and have it here by the end of the week. Plus I'm always down for shooting the **** with a beer or... four.
 

Dutch Rutter

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Ok, got to roll around some underneath and inside of the truck. Followed the two wires from the transmission to the vacuum module (pictured) then I followed the vacuum line from the module to a T spliter (second picture), one end goes to the right front side of the carb the other goes to some ball thing on the passenger side near the heater/AC (third picture). I then turned the ignition to on, not starting the truck and tested the two wires coming from the vacuum module. I was using a pointed probe, cheapo light type, grounded to the brake booster. I was unable to get any power from the three wires from the vacuum module, I then left the key on and tried the wires underneath the truck going to the transmission just to be sure, same result nothing. So with this newly found knowledge.. I did also end up having to replace the round stainless fuse? that my turn signals run through a while back, do the brake lights also run through that same fuse? If so could it be possible I somehow got the wrong one? or is it something else entirely and hopefully a super quick and easy fix.

Worst case right now: I supposed I could cut the to be wire that should have power run a switch, but if its just a fuse of loose connection I would prefer just fixing that. At least until I can get the whole kit here and installed.

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